Cornelius the Centurion

[JohnB]

Thanks Whetstone.
I think that your reponse illustrates a division in the Calvinist camp.

1. Some believe that regeneration precedes faith.
The reason I cited Piper is because he is in this group, yet I coould not reconcile how he thought Cornelius had faith prior to regeneration.

2. Others believe faith can precede regeneration.
It sounds like this is your position, right? Spurgeon seemed to be in this camp too, though his writing indicates that he sometimes fluctuated between these two positions.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Since you are "not a Calvinist" and have your own blend of theology (which is fine with me.) and believe that God draws without regenerating, you are indeed not a Calvinist by any standard definition.

You have either grossly misunderstood what Calvinists believe or you have grossly misstated what they believe. Calvinists, in my experience, don't believe that God must regenerate a man in order to draw him. God can draw the man then regenerate him at a later time.

But if you don't want to talk to me just because I refuse to wear your labels, that is entirely up to you, and, of course, it gives you an out so you don't have to respond to my answers to your slightly flawed question so I can understand your reluctance.

 

[JohnB]

To sum things up so far, I have had the following reponse:

God drew Cornelius and gave him faith prior to his regeneration.

Anyone from the "regeneration precedes faith" Calvinist camp want to take a whack?

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by JohnB:
God drew Cornelius and gave him faith prior to his regeneration.

Who on this forum has said that God gave Cornelius faith prior to his regeneration?

 

[JohnB]

Whetstone,
Lest I misrepresent you, are you proposing that Cornelius was exercising God-given, God-initiated faith in Act 10:2? Or were Cornelius' acts the result of drawing but something short of what could be called faith?

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Whetstone,
Lest I misrepresent you, are you proposing that Cornelius was exercising God-given, God-initiated faith in Act 10:2? Or were Cornelius' acts the result of drawing but something short of what could be called faith?

I would say he had seeking faith but not saving faith. Saving faith comes at the point of regeneration (i.e. salvation). His faith was obviously strong enough to believe the vision he saw and call for Peter, but obviously not strong enough to be saved at that point. Therefore- God will give an amount of revelation and belief before salvation so that a person will desire this salvation- but a person does not have saving faith- or saving belief until the point of 'second birth.'

 

[whetstone]

it's not wrong to say that a person can have faith before salvation- but the Calvinist recognizes that NNE will have such faith without God's enabling.

PS- i like spurgoen. Feel free to visit my site spurgeon.us

God bless.

 

[JohnB]

Whetstone,
Thanks for the clarification between seeking and saving faith. So, I should restate my earlier comment:

God drew Cornelius and gave him seeking faith prior to saving faith (regeneration.)

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by JohnB:
Whetstone,
Thanks for the clarification between seeking and saving faith. So, I should restate my earlier comment:

God drew Cornelius and gave him seeking faith prior to saving faith (regeneration.)

Correct. and you'd be right- Spurgeon's Calvinism is no different than that Calvinism- or my Calvinism.

 

[Wes Outwest]

"Seeking faith"?

Amazing, when one cannot face the Bible truth they invent a truth of their own.

We have Grace in 31 flavors, and now Faith is coming out in an abundance of flavors.

Next thing ya know Salvation will be available in a variety of "names under heaven"

Religious marketing is flooding the market with counterfit truth!

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
"Seeking faith"?

Amazing, when one cannot face the Bible truth they invent a truth of their own.

We have Grace in 31 flavors, and now Faith is coming out in an abundance of flavors.

Next thing ya know Salvation will be available in a variety of "names under heaven"

Religious marketing is flooding the market with counterfit truth!

What saith the scriptures?

Faith is dealt to you:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Grace is given to you:

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

Belief is given to you:

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

God's question for those who take credit for these things:

1Cr 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?

 

[billwald]

"Now, I understand that in Calvinism, regeneration precedes faith. And Cornelius seems to have displayed faith prior to his regeneration. How could this be?"

Faith generated by common grace and faith generated by saving grace?

 

[rc]

First of all John B. you didn't quote Piper and you didn't footnote where you received that from which is NOT regarding using Piper's material. If you take something from him, please use a link or copy the whole chapter please. God forbid someone use something out of context!!

"FEARED GOD" A term that was used for gentiles who were partly converted to Judaism, a Gentile who worshiped God but who was not circumcised ..look at 13:16,26.

Cornelius was revealed to him the law by the Holy Spirit. Thereby in the same "condition" any good Jew was in sincerely obeying God, just like David, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... All elect by God, chosen before the beginning of time. Cornelius was just privileged to have his faith come to fruition by having the gospel revealed to him.

John B. please give me the info on Piper please.

 

[JohnB]

Thanks Bill,
So we still have two different kinds of faith? "Faith generated by common grace and faith generated by saving grace." But God still has to grant both, and only to the elect? So, effectual faith works in stages?

But this still does not address how unregenerate man can have any kind of true faith. As Sproul says: "dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith."

 

[JohnB]

Hey RC, good to see you back.

Here's the citation. Please check to see if I quoted out of context.

They are from a sermon entitled "What God Has Cleansed Do Not Call Common
Acts 10:1-11:18,October 20, 1991"

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/91/102091.html

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
"Seeking faith"?

Amazing, when one cannot face the Bible truth they invent a truth of their own.

We have Grace in 31 flavors, and now Faith is coming out in an abundance of flavors.

Next thing ya know Salvation will be available in a variety of "names under heaven"

Religious marketing is flooding the market with counterfit truth!

What saith the scriptures?

Faith is dealt to you:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Grace is given to you:

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

Belief is given to you:

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

God's question for those who take credit for these things:

1Cr 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]? </font>[/QUOTE]That is definitely a LITERALIST response!

I must ask you though, where do those who have no "seeking" faith or "Saving" faith, get their faith in things natural and or physical? You know, things like a common chair, or maybe your automobile, or "other drivers", or the Airplane and it's crew? Just where does that faith come from? Not to mention their faith in people like their lifemates, their children, their bankers, etc.

 

[JohnB]

RC,
Granted, Cornelius was elect as was Abraham, David, etc.

But this still does not answer how an unregenerate man, spiritually dead, demonstrated any kind of faith, and cooperated with the Spirit of God in any way, prior to being regenerated.

Again, to quote Sproul: "dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith."

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul01.html

 

[rc]

RC,
Granted, Cornelius was elect as was Abraham, David, etc.

But this still does not answer how an unregenerate man, spiritually dead, demonstrated any kind of faith, and cooperated with the Spirit of God in any way, prior to being regenerated

Thats the whole point. In the context of O.T. Ordo Salutis it is still the Holy Spirit revealing God to whom He wishes.

 

[rc]

Sorry J.B.

THanks for the link.... I'll check it out...

 

[JohnB]

I understand that the Holy Spirit revealed God to Cornelius. Again, I am not disputing that God elected and called Cornelius by His Spirit.

But Cornelius, in his unregenerated state, cooperated with the Spirit? Cornelius obviously lived in faith for some period of time (days, months, years, doesn't matter) prior to his regeneration.

How can this jive with Sproul's statement?

Or do you believe that he was already regenerated prior to Peter's sermon?