Wes Outwest
New Member
Let me ask this question again
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Cornelius the Centurion
- Thread starter JohnB
- Start date
Was Abram regenerated before God chose him?
The Spirit can be upon whoever He wishes. There is no "cooperation". The "boundaries" of scripture make that quite clear. The spirit revealed Himself to a "God hating" man and gives him a new heart. This man (drawn by God) WILL seek God and find Him... this is the promise! John 6:37 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. This is about God accomplishing His purpose. He enlightened (regenerated Cornelius) just like Abram and David etc. and saved Him !
Piper by the way in Context was talking about racial bias... (there is none) he also explains further ....
....The second lesson from the text is that in every nation—that is, every ethnic people group around the world (v. 35)—there are people being PREPARED BY GOD to seek him with acceptable prayer. This means two things for us as we approach our annual Missions Fest.....
There can be no one BY THEMSELVES that seek after God. They were prepared, By the spirit just like O.T. to be put in the position to DESIRE God. And God will ALWAYS make sure those whom He chooses WILL Be saved. HE gave Cornelius the vision... HE Told Peter to go to Cornelius... HE did it all to save Cornelius... He gave him the desire and gave him the means... and guaranteed the ends !
The Spirit can be upon whoever He wishes. There is no "cooperation". The "boundaries" of scripture make that quite clear. The spirit revealed Himself to a "God hating" man and gives him a new heart. This man (drawn by God) WILL seek God and find Him... this is the promise! John 6:37 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. This is about God accomplishing His purpose. He enlightened (regenerated Cornelius) just like Abram and David etc. and saved Him !
Piper by the way in Context was talking about racial bias... (there is none) he also explains further ....
....The second lesson from the text is that in every nation—that is, every ethnic people group around the world (v. 35)—there are people being PREPARED BY GOD to seek him with acceptable prayer. This means two things for us as we approach our annual Missions Fest.....
There can be no one BY THEMSELVES that seek after God. They were prepared, By the spirit just like O.T. to be put in the position to DESIRE God. And God will ALWAYS make sure those whom He chooses WILL Be saved. HE gave Cornelius the vision... HE Told Peter to go to Cornelius... HE did it all to save Cornelius... He gave him the desire and gave him the means... and guaranteed the ends !
RC,
I understand that Piper's sermon was about racial bias. But that does not negate his statements about Cornelius in regard to total depravity.
Your lengthy answer is, of course a non-answer.
A politician once said, don't answer the question you are asked, answer the one you wish you were asked.
I completely understand how the ordo salutis works. So I do not need a restatement of it. What I do need is to understand how an unregenerate lived in faith. Or, again, do you contend that he was regenrate in Acts 10:2?
Don't feel bad if you cannot answer. I have scoured all the "regeneration precedes faith" Calvinists and I can find no explanation for Cornelius. But if you can give me a reference I would appreciate it. As I said in my initial post, I am not trying to trick anyone, I truly and sincerely would like to read the explanation of a "regeneration precedes faith" Calvinist.
I understand that Piper's sermon was about racial bias. But that does not negate his statements about Cornelius in regard to total depravity.
Your lengthy answer is, of course a non-answer.
A politician once said, don't answer the question you are asked, answer the one you wish you were asked.
I completely understand how the ordo salutis works. So I do not need a restatement of it. What I do need is to understand how an unregenerate lived in faith. Or, again, do you contend that he was regenrate in Acts 10:2?
Don't feel bad if you cannot answer. I have scoured all the "regeneration precedes faith" Calvinists and I can find no explanation for Cornelius. But if you can give me a reference I would appreciate it. As I said in my initial post, I am not trying to trick anyone, I truly and sincerely would like to read the explanation of a "regeneration precedes faith" Calvinist.
Wes Outwest
New Member
He didn't. There is no evidence at all that he had saving faith. If he had he would not have needed Peter to come and explain the Gospel to him. </font>[/QUOTE]Can you define "saving faith"
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
tcassidy;
May Christ shine His Light on Us all;
Mike
So what would you say then was he seeking God on his own
May Christ shine His Light on Us all;
Mike
Wes Outwest
New Member
It seem to me that none of you have the foggiest notion of what you're talking about. You have no understanding of the basics.
Grace: From God's point of view, there is but ONE (1) God's grace! As consistantly unchanging as God is, His grace is just as consistantly unchanging! There is no such thing as prevenient grace, or saving grace, or healing grace, or any of the other 31 flavors of grace you profess knowledge of. There is God's GRACE!
Perceived Grace: From man's point of view, there are as many flavors of Grace as man can invent names for, but those names all speak of the very same God's ONE (1) Grace.
Man too has Grace as a behavioral attribute. Man must learn to use the Grace given to him in the creation. Grace does not get transfered from
God to man any other way.
FAITH: Faith is a LEARNED thing. There is but one faith, and that is Human faith. Faith is something that All knowing, All seeing God has no need of Therefore, HE has none to Give to man. God made man so that man can have faith, but he did not give faith, any faith, to man, only the capacity to have faith.
Grace: From God's point of view, there is but ONE (1) God's grace! As consistantly unchanging as God is, His grace is just as consistantly unchanging! There is no such thing as prevenient grace, or saving grace, or healing grace, or any of the other 31 flavors of grace you profess knowledge of. There is God's GRACE!
Perceived Grace: From man's point of view, there are as many flavors of Grace as man can invent names for, but those names all speak of the very same God's ONE (1) Grace.
Man too has Grace as a behavioral attribute. Man must learn to use the Grace given to him in the creation. Grace does not get transfered from
God to man any other way.
FAITH: Faith is a LEARNED thing. There is but one faith, and that is Human faith. Faith is something that All knowing, All seeing God has no need of Therefore, HE has none to Give to man. God made man so that man can have faith, but he did not give faith, any faith, to man, only the capacity to have faith.
If you don't understand what it is, then no, I probably can't explain it to you so you will understand in light of 1 Corinthians 2:14.
If, on the other hand, you are confused regarding the difference between salvific faith and living faith, then, yes, I can probably explain it to you so you might understand.
Paul says, in Romans 1:17, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
Paul is talking about the faith in the Atonement of Christ which saves us being the starting point from which faith we then go on to the living faith he is describing. The first faith is faith in Christ and His atoning work on the cross, and the second faith is faith in Christ as our sustainer and finisher.
The first faith is saving faith as taught by Christ. "Thy faith hath saved thee."—Luke 7:50; and Luke 18:42.
The second faith is sustaining faith as taught by Paul in Romans and Galatians.
See now?
If, on the other hand, you are confused regarding the difference between salvific faith and living faith, then, yes, I can probably explain it to you so you might understand.
Paul says, in Romans 1:17, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
Paul is talking about the faith in the Atonement of Christ which saves us being the starting point from which faith we then go on to the living faith he is describing. The first faith is faith in Christ and His atoning work on the cross, and the second faith is faith in Christ as our sustainer and finisher.
The first faith is saving faith as taught by Christ. "Thy faith hath saved thee."—Luke 7:50; and Luke 18:42.
The second faith is sustaining faith as taught by Paul in Romans and Galatians.
See now?
i think when the questions are confusing the answers will be equally confusing. The original question was regarding Cornelious. Would I be so bold as to say, 'God gets all the glory?' God gets the glory for Cornelius' good works, his seeking God, his calling of Peter, and his salvation decision. God gets all the glory. What say ye?
Wes Outwest
New Member
Cassidy,
See now?
Well Cassidy, I do understand it, the way it is!
There is only one faith and we are saved by it and we live by it. We walk by faith not by sight! It is the same faith, not different faiths
Now just what do you think Paul is saying here? That which we receive as revelation through faith is what we live by in faith. ALL THE SAME FAITH!
Hogwash, it is all one faith and our one faith is based on what we hear, what we see, what we taste, what we feel, etc., all of which is knowledge that we build our faith in, on, over, under, through. ONE FAITH -- Human faith.
Saying, What you believe has saved you.
The one faith that man has, is what sustains man. The man that takes in more knowledge about the object of faith gains greater faith in the object of faith.
See now?
Well, now you have gone and done it. You have finally said something so utterly stupid that even your "supporters" will have to abandon you.
If there is only one faith, and not two, as Paul says, fine. I will agree with you. There is only one faith, but that is not "Human faith" as you falsely claim, but, according to 1 Corinthians 12:8 and 9, "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;" its the gift of faith!
Only one faith? Fine then, according to the bible that one faith is a gift given to us by God and is not "Human faith." Just as the Calvinists have been saying all alone! Faith comes as a gift from God!
LOL!
Okay, Wes, time to roll it up and go home. You have been exposed as a troll. Nobody could possibly make as many blunders as you have and not be putting us on! We all fell for it, but now the game is over. Time to call it quits.
Tcassidy,
The only reason I haven't kept posting is because I am still waiting for someone to offer a plausible answer to my initial question.
Your explanation, that Cornelius was not expressing genuine faith pleasing to God contradicts the Word. The angel told Cornelius that his alms and prayers ascended before God as a memorial. If Cornelius was not expressing true, God honoring faith, how could this be?
Your assertion is unfounded in scripture, TCassidy. No one else has expressed doubt in the true sincerity of Cornelius' faith. And you have yet to cite any scholarship that supports your view.
The only reason I haven't kept posting is because I am still waiting for someone to offer a plausible answer to my initial question.
Your explanation, that Cornelius was not expressing genuine faith pleasing to God contradicts the Word. The angel told Cornelius that his alms and prayers ascended before God as a memorial. If Cornelius was not expressing true, God honoring faith, how could this be?
Your assertion is unfounded in scripture, TCassidy. No one else has expressed doubt in the true sincerity of Cornelius' faith. And you have yet to cite any scholarship that supports your view.
<sigh> I never said Cornelius was not expressing genuine faith pleasing to God. I said that Cornelius did not have, as yet, saving faith.
What assertion is that? That Cornelius was not yet saved. Just read the passage and you will see that Peter presented the Gospel to him and he got saved. If he got saved subsequent to verse 2 it is pretty well understood except by a few radical Pentecostals, that he was not saved in verse 2.
<sigh>Show me one cite from "scholarship" who says Cornelius was saved in verse 2 and not in verse 44 followed by his baptism in verse 48. Just one.
TCassidy, your obfuscation is tedious.
In a previous post, you said: "Cornelius did not seek God. God sought Cornelius and sent Peter, whom God had already prepared, to preach Christ unto him. All the bible says about him was that he was pious, that he feared God, that he was a good giver, and that he prayed. The same can be said of just about every Muslim I know, but they aren't saved nor are they seeking the True God of all creation. They, like Cornelius, are perfectly content with the god they have."
If by comparing Cornelius to a Muslim "content with the God they have" is the same as "genuine faith pleasing to God" (as you claim above) then you are either running in circles or changing your story as you go along. This is why I stopped responding, because you cannot stay consistent.
In a previous post, you said: "Cornelius did not seek God. God sought Cornelius and sent Peter, whom God had already prepared, to preach Christ unto him. All the bible says about him was that he was pious, that he feared God, that he was a good giver, and that he prayed. The same can be said of just about every Muslim I know, but they aren't saved nor are they seeking the True God of all creation. They, like Cornelius, are perfectly content with the god they have."
If by comparing Cornelius to a Muslim "content with the God they have" is the same as "genuine faith pleasing to God" (as you claim above) then you are either running in circles or changing your story as you go along. This is why I stopped responding, because you cannot stay consistent.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Originally posted by TCassidy:
Well, now you have gone and done it. You have finally said something so utterly stupid that even your "supporters" will have to abandon you.
If there is only one faith, and not two, as Paul says, fine. I will agree with you. There is only one faith, but that is not "Human faith" as you falsely claim, but, according to 1 Corinthians 12:8 and 9, "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;" its the gift of faith!
Only one faith? Fine then, according to the bible that one faith is a gift given to us by God and is not "Human faith." Just as the Calvinists have been saying all alone! Faith comes as a gift from God!
LOL!
Why do you choose one scripture to agree with and refuse the truth of another? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Faith is based on what we hear. Faith is a uniquely and individually human thing, look at the following examples where scriptures tell man that man must have faith from within, and not something given them:
You are simply wrong to falsely accuse me of being a troll! And you are ignorant of the truth!
Not nearly as tedious as your hate mongering and bone headed obduracy. You have tried to mischaraterize what I said, then attempted to pillory me based on our mischaraterization.
The facts still remain. Cornelius was not saved in verse 2. Therefore he did not have saving faith in verse two. No matter how you try to spin it he was not seeking God in the sense of saving faith. Get over it.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Yet, he had faith!
John B
Do you know the difference between Judaism and Christianity? Do they have a "fear for God?" Do they have FAITH in the law and the prophets?
Yet they are lost, unregenerate.... broken off branches.... This is the condition that Cornelius was in. Nowhere does it say that Cornelius was FAITHFUL. At best he was enlighten by God enough just to Judaism. This is not regeneration OR salvation but religion. The new covenant Christ gave wasn't even known to him. But God knew him and chose him and sent Peter to SAVE him.
So an Cornelius DIDN'T have faith in Christ and was not regenerate. You err in thinking he had faith. It does not say that in scripture.
Do you know the difference between Judaism and Christianity? Do they have a "fear for God?" Do they have FAITH in the law and the prophets?
Yet they are lost, unregenerate.... broken off branches.... This is the condition that Cornelius was in. Nowhere does it say that Cornelius was FAITHFUL. At best he was enlighten by God enough just to Judaism. This is not regeneration OR salvation but religion. The new covenant Christ gave wasn't even known to him. But God knew him and chose him and sent Peter to SAVE him.
So an Cornelius DIDN'T have faith in Christ and was not regenerate. You err in thinking he had faith. It does not say that in scripture.
"At best he was enlighten(ed) by God enough just to Judaism."
RC,
Sounds like you are on the verge of creating a new Calvinism. Short of regeneration, no dead man can be enlightened in any way whatsoever. Sounds like prevenient grace.
Or could you cite some support for this idea of partial enlightenment?
RC,
Sounds like you are on the verge of creating a new Calvinism. Short of regeneration, no dead man can be enlightened in any way whatsoever. Sounds like prevenient grace.
Or could you cite some support for this idea of partial enlightenment?
I had posted this question n another board and here is a citation:
The 1599 Geneva Study Bible where this comment is made about Acts 10:2:
"So that he worshipped one God, and was not an idolater, and neither could he be void of faith in Christ, because he was a devout man: but as of yet he did not know that Christ had come."
Neither could he be void of faith in Christ... hmmm.
The contention of the person who posted this was that Cornelius was regenerate and displayed faith, but was not saved until Peter came and preached the gospel. This sounds more consistent with the Ordo Salutis than your position.
The 1599 Geneva Study Bible where this comment is made about Acts 10:2:
"So that he worshipped one God, and was not an idolater, and neither could he be void of faith in Christ, because he was a devout man: but as of yet he did not know that Christ had come."
Neither could he be void of faith in Christ... hmmm.
The contention of the person who posted this was that Cornelius was regenerate and displayed faith, but was not saved until Peter came and preached the gospel. This sounds more consistent with the Ordo Salutis than your position.