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Featured Cultural Engagement: Every Christian's Obligation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Feb 16, 2021.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thank you. I was not familiar with the term "world flight".

    I think that we are to interact with the World (engagement) but that we are at the same time to be separated from the World (called out).

    For me this engagement means standing for Godly principles, sharing the gospel of Christ, and working with my fellow believers. To share the gospel we interact with people. We have to interact to love them.

    For me, being "called out", "separated from" the World means fidelity to the Kingdom of God, towards which the World is hostile. It means not participating in the systems (powers and principles) of the World as best I can.

    I am often tempted to jump in (especially with politics) but have to ask myself "to what end?". It is tempting to preach to the World their sins, to try to make the World right, but I have to remember we are not to judge the World as it has already been judged. We can do nothing to make the World right (that is what the World tries to do) as it is condemned already.

    So I try to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God to those who will listen. Rather than trying to save the World, to make the World right, I have to remember my purpose is to increase His Kingdom.
     
    #41 JonC, Feb 23, 2021
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Strannik,

    Everyone reads psalm 22 about Jesus being Crucified.
    but afterward, we read this;

    27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

    28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.


    Satan as the opposer tried to prevent Jesus from going to the cross. Jesus corrected Him and now has been given ALL POWER...MT.28


    Jesus Kingdom authority was from Heaven, it did not have an earthly origin. But in Mt.28 He declares;
    18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Now after the cross it is;
    25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
     
    #42 Iconoclast, Feb 23, 2021
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,
    [QUOTE]I think that we are to interact with the World (engagement) but that we are at the same time to be separated from the World (called out). [/QUOTE]

    I agree in principle, but think to refine this as much as possible


    Agreed, I do not think this can really be questioned.


    Agreed, we are called out, but I have been examining what we are called to! The world is indeed hostile we can never forget this.

    Here we differ. We do not just judge or inform the world of their sins, in an effort to get them to clean up a little bit, sort of self-help and a little cleansing the outward conduct.No...outward reformation does not get it done.
    Years back I tried to get a few threads going on a small book called Greening of the Church, by Findley Edge; he said this;
    greening of the church pt5
    Agreed

    AS we preach the gospel and it results in changed lives by new birth, inevitably it will change the world as Gods law flows out from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem;
    25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


    2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

    3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:     for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
     
    #43 Iconoclast, Feb 23, 2021
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Kuyper wrote on pg405;

    [Our 19th century is dying away under the hypnosis of the dogma of evolution. To be sure, in our country and elsewhere Christian action has develop greater resiliency than has seemed possible since the time of the Reformation, but while rapidly gaining ground, this action until now has been almost exclusively practical mystical in character.
    At the center of the life of human consciousness, IE, in science, and literature, and in the Press, leadership has remained largely in the hands of intellectuals with a Christless perspective. Although there are some indications of a change in this respect, and our University too is trying to hasten change, it cannot be denied that the sphere of higher thinking Christian presuppositions serve only sporadically as the lodestar.

    What is more, the influence of the time-honored Christian mind has diminished rapidly in the thinking of this century, and for that the hynosis of the evolution dogma is especially to blame.]

    Kuyper was very intelligent. It is looking as if he as one person was trying to be a force for good, but he was trying to influence so many issues by himself, with little support. Not sure yet, but he seems more on target then off target.
     
    #44 Iconoclast, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think where we disagree (probably the only area of disagreement) is how we interact with the World. But we are each accountable to God, so I say we follow our convictions the best we can.

    I hope my absence from political involvement will be a witness of Christ just as much as other Christians involvement. I don't mean "to each his own", but I do believe we have to be faithful even if we disagree.
     
    #45 JonC, Feb 23, 2021
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The big problem is that oin all of the areas that we as Christians refuse to participate in, just darkness will remain and will continue to fester and grow!
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Feb 24, 2021
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do you believe Christians should be in the porn industry (to be salt and light")? Maybe they could move the industry to a less oppressive.
     
    #47 JonC, Feb 24, 2021
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, believe should be in music, movies, and publishing though!
     
    #48 Yeshua1, Feb 24, 2021
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Why?
     
    #49 JonC, Feb 24, 2021
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    How about Christians being in the legislature and writing laws against porn.
     
    #50 Iconoclast, Feb 24, 2021
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Same difference, I suppose.

    Porn is illegal in Islamic governed nations. But passing laws will not make a nation godly. The best of the World will never usurp God's Kingdom.

    Personally, I think the Church does better when the enmity between the World and Christ is obvious.
     
    #51 JonC, Feb 24, 2021
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,



    No..we cannot legislate or force morality like Islam.
    Nut this universe belongs to God.
    Men are responsible to worship, serve, and obey God even if they do not at this present time.

    While we cannot "force it by law", we can put forth God's law as the standard for everyone.

    The anthesis the exists removes many obstacles and makes the gospel easier to present.
    I think we can do both.
    I see nothing wrong with Christians taking a stand for God in the public forum.
    Christian police, judges, councilman, nurses, senators.
    If we do not
     
    #52 Iconoclast, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Titus deals with the Church (guarding the Church against worldly influences).

    I have to echo Paul here. What is the sins of the World to me? Am I to judge the World? No. I am to judge those inside, not outside.
     
    #53 JonC, Feb 24, 2021
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The Church should guard itself.
    However God has the church still on earth.
    The church is in the world but we do not want the world in the church.

    I do not believe we surrender to the ungodly world system. To rescue the perishing the church must remain vital and spill over into the decadent cultures preaching the Kingdom of God as present and growing like the parable of the mustard seed
     
    #54 Iconoclast, Feb 25, 2021
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are to preserve the culture, and are sent by Lord Jesus out to be lights and the salt!
     
    #55 Yeshua1, Feb 25, 2021
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So you would not have had Christians be involved in anti slavery movement, or woman or black rights?
     
    #56 Yeshua1, Feb 25, 2021
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If we decide to just stay in our churches and not be part of the culture, darkness dominates!
     
    #57 Yeshua1, Feb 25, 2021
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are to be involved in our society, is it not better to have leaders and say Judges and law makers who know and follow the scriptures?
     
    #58 Yeshua1, Feb 25, 2021
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would he have had the Christians not being involved in abolishing Slavery movement, as that would be "worldly?"
     
    #59 Yeshua1, Feb 25, 2021
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe that the Church should be the Church (I think that we both agree on that part, but am trying ineptly to make a point :Cautious ).

    What I mean is I believe that the Church is concerned not with secular government (those "outside") but with the governance of the congregation (those "inside"). The way the Church (and Christians, by extension) influence the world is not by becoming involved in politics but the exact opposite - by being the Church, by being Light, and by being Salt.

    Historically this was the position until Christianity was made a State religion. The early Christians refused to vote. They refused military service. They refused to hold public office. AND they still influenced the world around them - not by entering into the systems of the world but by being witness of Christ to this World towards which they refused to join.

    I wonder how much of an obstacle political parties have become (perhaps just a side note.....you know, @Iconoclast , how my mind wanders ;) ). I wonder if the Christian who is also a dedicated Democrat finds the DNC a barrier when dealing with Republicans. I wonder if the GOP is a barrier to Republican Christians dealing with lost Democrats. I also wonder if people can see the difference between the works and views of people like Ben Shapiro (not a slight towards the man, I really appreciate him...but my son thinks he talks too fast) Republicans who are Christians.

    My point is how are the actions of a Christian and a non-Christian different if their voice is the GOP (or any political party)? There are many atheists who promote good social values (values align with "Christian" values). The goal of politics is to influence the World through political means. Politics is worldly by definition (it comes from the Greek πολιτικά [politiká], referring to the concerns of cities). Politics involves running secular governments, making secular laws, and governing secular society.

    Is that where Christians should lend their voice? Is the goal of Christianity to influence the world into making good laws, creating a fair secular government, and governing a secular society? Or is the goal of Christianity to point to Christ and God's Kingdom, which is not of this world; to be a witness of Christ by standing apart from the powers and principles of this world?

    Those are, of course, questions each of us have to ask ourselves. For me, the answer is that politics is a power of this World and one which is by definition at odds with the Church. So my answer is that I will try not to be involved in politics, to include voting (interestingly, I can say my last vote cast was for Trump).

    I have to follow my conscious. Others do not. They should follow their own. We are accountable in these matters, and they really are serious issues with serious implications. I believe we are going to be held accountable for how we use our voices in this life. So each of use have to consider this issue and be faithful as best we can to God.
     
    #60 JonC, Feb 25, 2021
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