I agree with the problem you have here. I see no biblical support for a pastor, calvinist or not, saying that he is not to be a personal witness. I vehemently disagree with my Presbyterian brothers who believe that the Great Commission was given only to the church and should only take place when the church is gathered. The disciples were told that they were to make disciples as they went. Part of that process was to teach them everything the Lord commanded them, included the command He had just given them.
Paul told Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. It sounds more like a cop-out for a pastor to claim that he is to equip and not to also "do the work of the ministry" alongside the other believers in his care. This is not biblical leadership. </font>[/QUOTE]Agreed.
D.L.Moody
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Mar 31, 2006.
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
And of course methodology is completely out of the window. Advertising is absolutely unneeded, whether it be a billboard, a radio spot or a believer inviting another believer (all forms of advertisement).
Packaging the Gospel nicely is out of the question. When I write a tract for the finicky and perfectionist Japanese, it should be done on plain white paper with the plainest of fonts, and absolutely no graphics. God will save that soul regardless of what I do, anyway, as long as I simply do my duty and get that Gospel out!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: -
mnw, Please take a closer look at some of the things you say.
Your theology is made up of neat sounding and sentimental cliches. I would urge you to dig deeper into your bible for your beliefs. -
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Why is it SOME calvis think they are the only ones who have taken the time to look at their Bibles? Some, not all calvis have such pride. So many of you say, "If only you could study the Bible like me, then you would really understand."
I would urge you to dig deeper into your Bible, instead of Calvin's writings... -
And why is it so many non-calvis think we sit around discussing the Institutes all day. A lot of Calvis haven't even read John Calvin. They've read the Bible. That is what convinced me.
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I would submit to you that the problem we are having in our churches now is not Calvinism. The problem is that we try any method possible to get a positive response to God. Anyone who prays a 3-sentence prayer is told they are now bound for heaven and should never doubt that. We forget that a positive response to God is not what saves. We are justified by faith.
In the parable of the soils 3 out of the 4 soils represented positive responses to the gospel. 2 of those 3 were not really saved, as evidenced by the fact that they produced no fruit, but withered. This is the way it is today, mostly as a result of mass evangelism with little actual moving of the Holy Spirit. We have churches that are two-thirds full of unbelievers and now you want to blame Calvinism! -
And if anybody has a sense of superiority, it's independent fundamental baptists, of which I have been a number for more than two decades. I have to admit that's what attracted me to the IFB - the cockiness. I've repented of that, but sometimes "Adam" still raises his head. -
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mnw, "arguing" is o.k. with me as long as it's not personal. It is a DEBATE forum. I think we all sometimes say things that shed more heat than light during the 'heat' of the debate. Sometimes we have to take a break, sometimes for days, to cool down. Some of us are very direct in the way we say things, which cause some of the others to accuse us of being mean. I like to be as direct as possible, but not uncivil. I want to be direct enough to CHALLANGE your beliefs.
I like your posts and hope you stay on with us. We're all learning here. -
Originally posted by mnw:
If someone prays a genuine prayer of repentance putting their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, then where is the issue?Click to expand...
I see no problem with a genuine prayer of repentance. Jesus commended the tax collector who said a very simple prayer.
On an interesting note, I just read through John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress to my 5-year old son. Tough reading. But there was a very interesting point in the story where Christian shared the gospel with another man they met in one of the cities (I don't remember which). He then, after the man expressed genuine repentance and desire for forgiveness, led the man in what can only be called "The Sinner's Prayer." It was much more thorough than the sinner's prayer of today, but it was the same idea. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is the "drive-by" sinner's prayer, where you use the shot-gun approach to get the masses to repeat after you and then count them as converts on your next advertizing pamphlet.
So the first awakening with the calvinists was fine, but the second awakening with the not so calvninistic was not okay?Click to expand...
(Is that an accurate census?)Click to expand...
No, I want to stress I have no particular axe to grind with calvnism in general. What I put in my last post was more extreme than I wanted to sound. As one has stated, the old Adam sometimes makes an appearance.Click to expand...
What irritates me is when all the wrongs of the world from the dawn of time is placed at the feet of anyone who is not a proclaimed 5 point calvinist.Click to expand...
What irritates me is when every thing is made to revovle around calvinism.Click to expand...
What irritates me most of all is when I allow myself to get into these discussions, I end up arguing with a brother or sister and I should know better!Click to expand... -
J.D., Calvibaptist, its good to know you both! Please do challenge me and God help me to respond in an edifying way... whether we agree or not.
I would agree that the worldly "marketing" techniques that have been brought into some churches are wrong. They wrongly look at converts as statistics and the working of God as the result of effective business principles.
While I do not believe in limited atonement or irresistable grace (you'll have to forgive me for that ), I do believe in the sovereignty of God. To me God allowing choice in no way takes away from His sovereignty. A word we don't hear much, but I have come to love, is Providence. I have a collection of Puritan Paperbacks and one of them is titled "The Mystery of Providence." It is by John Flavel. If you can get a copy I am sure you will enjoy it.
Thank you for debating with me. I look forward to more.
As the Word says, "Iron sharpeneth iron..."
As for Moody and Spurgeon in the original question. As Calvibaptist has said, God can sovereignly use calvinists and non-calvinists. -
Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
And why is it so many non-calvis think we sit around discussing the Institutes all day. A lot of Calvis haven't even read John Calvin. They've read the Bible. That is what convinced me.Click to expand... -
OP question:
Any thoughts on the famous evangelist ? Dwight L. Moody ( 1837-1899 ) was a friend of Spurgeon's . CHS let him occupy his pulpit several times . Yet they were poles apart theologically . I have often wondered why Spurgeon did not exercise more discernment about having Moody preach in his pulpit . Also , why did he show open admiration for Moody's form of evangelicism which was so different from his model preacher, George Whitefield ?Click to expand...
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Obviously, this was predestined to happen. :rolleyes:
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I had asked the question also about non-Calvinist pastors allowing Calvinists to preach from their pulpits . Have any of you avowed non-Calvinists ever invited a Calvinist to preach at your church ? If so , did you attach conditions ?
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Rip I know you want to hear from a non-C, but let me add my stiuation. I am a C in a A church where I preached and taught for years. Since my conversion to C, I have been strictly forbidden from speaking in the church. In fact I was initially summoned to a meeting where I was invited in no uncertain terms to leave the church. Cooler heads prevailed and I was allowed to remain. I can not leave the church for reasons I'm not at liberty to devulge. So for now I'm just stuck there under a gag order. That's why my posts on Monday mornings are edgy. I get irritated listening to my A pastor rail on me from the pulpit while I just sit there and take it. This forum is my outlet. Thank God.
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I know what you mean J.D. I have a Presbyterian friend here who goes to an Arminian church . The pastor refers to Don often in his sermons . " Well, Don would disagree with what I'm about to say next ... " . The pastor is not intentionally pugnacious , but it still rankles . BTW , Don is a very committed Christian . I know his father too . The pickins' are slim here in Korea if you want to worship at a Calvinistic Church . My home church in the States is Calvinistic , but here ... My pastor just started on Ephesians and things are looking up .
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Since nobody has come forward ...I will continue with John Kennedy's words .
SAVING FAITH
What about saving fath ? It must be realized that there is a faith which can be exercised without the aid of the Holy Spirit . But it is not the faith that is ' to the saving of the soul '. That is expressly declared to be ' of the operation of God ', and requires the working of his mighty power which he wrought in Christ , when he raised him from the dead . Saving faith , too, uniquely rests upon the person of Christ . It does so , not merely believing in the historical figure of Christ as found in the gospels , but also by apprehending him as a living , present Saviour , made real by the Holy Spirit . It actually receives Him as a living ,present person who is Jesus of Nazareth , the Lord Christ . It embraces him . It is not merely belief in the facts about Christ ; it is also trust in the person who is presented in the gospel record . Faith implies unreserved dependence upon the grace of God offered in Christ . It is not merely taking advantage of a convenient ground of hope . It is an acknowledgement of being justly condemned and helpless at the footstool of the divine throne . It is the acceptance of salvation from the hands of the sovereign God ' to the praise of the glory of his grace '. Who knows best about the grace of the gospel , the man who thinks he is saved by grace through a faith is not of himself but is the gift of God ? Did Jesus hide this in his preaching in Luke 4 , John 3 , and John 6 ? It was in his preachig in John 6 that he said , ' No man can come to me except the Father hath sent me , draw him :
3. No care is taken to show how God is glorified in the salvation of a sinner through the death of Christ . The modern gospel is a gospel primarily meant for man's relief and convenience . How salvation is ' to the praise of God's glory the preacher is not careful to show , nor is the sinner anxious to know .
True , much use is made of Christ's death . But it is usually referred to only a disposing of sin , so that the sinner is no longer in danger when he believes that Christ died for him . This use of the gospel as primarily an escape for the sinner has been very frequent and effective . Christ's death is declared to be the object of faith . But it is his substitution rather than himself that is made the object of faith . To believe in the substitution is what produces the peace . This serves to remove the sense of danger . But there is often no direct dealing with the person who was the substitute . There is little deep appreciation of the merit of his sacrifice because of the divine glory of the One who was offered . It is not faith in the work of Christ that saves , but faith in Christ himself who accomplished the work . This is the faith that saves .
[ April 07, 2006, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Rippon ] -
Rippon said: ↑Any thoughts on the famous evangelist ? Dwight L. Moody ( 1837-1899 ) was a friend of Spurgeon's . CHS let him occupy his pulpit several times . Yet they were poles apart theologically . I have often wondered why Spurgeon did not exercise more discernment about having Moody preach in his pulpit . Also , why did he show open admiration for Moody's form of evangelicism which was so different from his model preacher, George Whitefield ?
In a book I have by Alan Sell called " Theology In Turmoil " he cites a J.Opie .
...Moody offered an enthusiastic but comfortable moralism . The sovereign God of American religious awakenenings before the Civil War had become by the gilded Age a friendly personal counselor . Sin , once a truly awful condition , Victorian gentility gentility translated into the social improprieties of laziness , drunkedness and poverty . Grace ... [now] provided for the pleasantries of self-confidence , comfort , and prosperity . Conversion , once the most shattering experience of man's short and harsh life , became the voter's judicious right to change party affiliation . Moody's revivalism reached its climax ... in sentiment .Click to expand...
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