death penalty?

[Jerome]

Do you find it strange that Mr. Charles insinuates that Lactantius supported the death penalty, when Lactantius's writings indicate he was against it?

No, because Mr. Charles is probably familiar with Lactantius' other writings, like A Treatise on the Anger of God, Chapter XVII:
"They are deceived by no slight error who defame all censure, whether human or divine, with the name of bitterness and malice, thinking that He ought to be called injurious who visits the injurious with punishment. But if this is so, it follows that we have injurious laws, which enact punishment for offenders, and injurious judges who inflict capital punishments on those convicted of crime. But if the law is just which awards to the transgressor his due, and if the judge is called upright and good when he punishes crimes,-for he guards the safety of good men who punishes the evil,-it follows that God, when He opposes the evil, is not injurious; but he himself is injurious who either injures an innocent man, or spares an injurious person that he may injure many."

Looking back, however, I wince at my words to you about being "ignorant" of Christian history. I understand there are a lot of views out there and this issue has never had uniformed support for either position. My apology to you for my choice of words.

No offense taken, especially since those words were not directed to me, but to Allan.

 

[canadyjd]

No, because Mr. Charles is probably familiar with Lactantius' other writings, like A Treatise on the Anger of God, Chapter XVII:
"They are deceived by no slight error who defame all censure, whether human or divine, with the name of bitterness and malice, thinking that He ought to be called injurious who visits the injurious with punishment. But if this is so, it follows that we have injurious laws, which enact punishment for offenders, and injurious judges who inflict capital punishments on those convicted of crime. But if the law is just which awards to the transgressor his due, and if the judge is called upright and good when he punishes crimes,-for he guards the safety of good men who punishes the evil,-it follows that God, when He opposes the evil, is not injurious; but he himself is injurious who either injures an innocent man, or spares an injurious person that he may injure many."

I still didn't see him saying Christians should support the death penalty.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I haven't dismissed anything out of hand - I just disagreed.

Also, I just asked a simple question about something you posted. You said that scripture tells us that men don't have the wisdom to implement the death penalty and I asked where does it say this. I don't see what the problem is with me asking that question.

Of course you are right. I guess I am growing a little weary of it all. Sorry.

peace to youraying:

 

[Ralph III]

I have not participated in this debate but have read every post! Because this is something which I have come to question myself and as Marcia, "On the fence". Though I was always in favor of such in my youth but mostly out of great disdain for murderous thugs and such -and- because I felt it would serve as a deterrent to other such crimes.

Many excellent points and Scripture has been given by both sides in this debate! Though I feel proponents who justify the death penalty have given a stronger case, biblically speaking.

I cannot say I have been overwhelmingly convinced either way though. Yes, God justified the sentence of death in the Old Testament. The great flood was His condemnation of death upon an entire evil World, with exception of Noah and his! Though many times He also showed mercy and as our Lord Jesus teaches us.

LeBuick, the New Orleans analogy was somewhat in poor taste. As many people did suffer from the Hurricane, BUT God gave us a covenant that He would never again bring a flood that would "destroy the earth.” As one could read your post as implying He possibly broke His covenant with us. No biggie though!




I would like a few answers for myself, please.

1) Would someone clarify if the early Christians were indeed for or against the death penalty? As Jerome and Canadyjd have given insight supporting both views.

2) Canadyjd, would you please answer Marcia's question?! "You said that scripture tells us that men don't have the wisdom to implement the death penalty and I asked where does it say this".




I am leaning toward life in prison but would like to see hard labor involved, honestly! Though I do not condemn the death penalty as in effect now. Gen. 9 is not something to be ignored.

"6 “ Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.

I am still on the Fence. Though I now feel more the death penalty is justified Biblically. However I also feel the Lord would like to see some mercy in lieu of a death sentence. Not necessarily for the wrongdoer, as much as to see His people earnestly trying to be as Him. I think this debate shows that by all involved. As it shows we are in search of His Truth!

Regardless, All will face our Lord's final judgment and His righteous sentence, will be given!

:jesus:

Take care. Ralph

 

[canadyjd]

However I also feel the Lord would like to see some mercy in lieu of a death sentence. Not necessarily for the wrongdoer, as much as to see His people earnestly trying to be as Him. I think this debate shows that by all involved. As it shows we are in search of His Truth!
Take care. Ralph

That is my point, but I guess I haven't made it very well. It isn't about whether someone deserves the death penalty (we all do, and we will all get it). It isn't even about whether God will use governments to execute criminals; since He obviously does in His Divine wisdom.

The question is whether it is Christlike to support the death penalty. By "Christlike" I mean are we behaving in ways consistent with what Jesus taught His followers? I maintain we are called to be of a different spirit than the rest of the world. The example of "perfect patience" (I Tim. 1:16) cannot be reconciled with support for the death penalty, although I understand many disagree and say that it can.

peace to you as you studyraying:

BTW, I have already maintained that Jesus changed the standards for implementing the death penalty in John 8. By doing so, He is telling us we do not have the wisdom to implement the death penalty. Only someone who "is without sin" can do so. That rules out everyone but God.

 

[TC]

Good points guys, God has kept his end of the deal but in the case of Noah, the covenant is really one sided. God's. And he has kept it but not destroying the "world" by flood. Now preach that sermon in New Orleans.

Only problem with your theory is that God gave Noah commands to follow -thereby making the covenent two-sided. Capital punishment of murderers is one of those commands.

 

[Gina B]

Ok I see your position here and would have to agree.

But I still believe in the death penalty for certain but not all offenders. If a person is truly remorseful or it was in self defense or a one time thing thing I would suggest a lesser punishment. But for repeat serial offenders I would have to say goodbye.

Hey you! Long time no see. How ya been dear?

 

[Alcott]

1. The church is not given the responsibility to pursue capital punishment, nor are Christians, nor are unbelievers. It is the responsibility of government as government. Vigilante justice is murder.

Maybe you can tell Elijah that some day. But where does scripture say it?

 

[Revmitchell]

Niether John 8 nor 1 Timothy 1:16 apply in the context of the death penalty. It is a complete misuse of scripture to pull these verses out of their context and apply them this way.

It has been mentioned I believe that Romans 13 covers this issue. In speaking of our governments authority under God as agents of God to administer justice the reference to the "sword" is refering to life and death. The government as an ordained and active agent of God is given the authority to administer punishment even to the point of life and death.
In order to justify misplaced compassion scripture has been "recontext" to fit the pretext.

What I find interesting is the desire by those in the Christian community to set aside justice in the name of compassion. And yet there is no biblical standard for such an ideology. Administering justice isnt about revenge but about being consistent with the character of God.

Ps 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
There are many verses that speak to an appropriate fear of an Almighty God. In todays so called "emerging chruch" the fear of God and the wrath of God is diminished. Brian McLaren one of the founders of this "emerging church" movement said in an interview that the idea the traditional hell and this wrath of God is cohercive rather than loving.Hell (since it cannot be side stepped) is being diminished and Gods' wrath is being ignored.

Psalms 36:1-4 1 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful. 3 The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good. 4 He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil. The evil that is commited in this world comes about as a result of a lack of fear of God. Man says that it is ok to commit murder, homosexuality, legalize the murder of innocent unborn children, steal, lie, cheat etc. only because they fear not God. Promoting compassion over and above the fear of God is ungodly, distorts his character, and does nothing to promote a civil society. For a civil society is a society that promotes the character of God and the fear of God. For a government without God is a governement against God.

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Even in the New Testament the lack of fear of God is again shown as the very reason for the behavior of a lost and dying world. In Acts ch 5 Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Ghost and God struck them dead. The result of this was that the church and all who heard of this feared God. When we remove the need for godly fear then we remove the very core of a civil society. And the very thing that produces a need for godly fear as we have clearly seen in scripture is approrpiate justice. When justice is minimized then the character and righteousness of God is minimized and society becomes less civil.

Another effect of minimizing Gods' justice and righteousness and character is that grace is minimized. For the very thing that makes grace so wonderful is godly fear. The prostitute Mary barged in the Pharisees house and fell at the feet of Jesus because she understood just how much had been forgiven as Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees. When we diminish an appropriate fear of God we diminish the need for salvation. We rob the world of a true understanding of just exactly what grace really is.

Those who argue that the death penalty is "barbaric" and "uncivilized" fail to recognize the character of God, the righteousness of God, and fail to distinguish between punishment and the criminal acts themselves. And as C.S. Lewis put it "To abandon the criteria of righteous and just punishment is to abandon all criteria for punishment".

A civil society understands the fear of the Lord as scripture clearly shows us. Anything less diminishes Gods' character and opens the door for more crime.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Maybe you can tell Elijah that some day. But where does scripture say it?

Not sure what the reference to Elijah is about, but Scripture says it in Gen 9 and Rom 13, complete with references all through the Law given to Israel. While we are not under that Law, we do see that the responsibility was given to government.

 

[canadyjd]

Niether John 8 nor 1 Timothy 1:16 apply in the context of the death penalty. It is a complete misuse of scripture to pull these verses out of their context and apply them this way.

John 8 is specifically about whether Jesus will apply the death penalty, according to the Law of Moses, to the woman caught in adultery. Jesus quotes Deut. 17:7, which specifically gives the standard for execution given by God to the Hebrews. Jesus specifically changes those standards from "two or three throwing the first stone" to "He that is without sin" administers the death penalty.

I Tim.1:16, in context, is referring to Paul, the persecutor of the church, the "violent agressor", and what sort of attitude we, as followers of Christ, should have toward him. We know from his own statements that Paul "persecuted this way to the death". Early in I Tim. is mentioned all sorts of sinners under the law, including "murderers" and "those who kill their fathers and mothers". Paul then says he is worse than all of those. And yet, Jesus specifically demonstrated mercy to Paul as an example to future believers. This example of "perfect patience" is to be followed.

I have in no way taken anything out of context. I am surprised (or maybe not) that you cannot see the obvious in these passages.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

YOu have in a large way taken it out of context and continue to do so.


In dealing with the woman (John 8) Jesus was addressing NOT their inability to administer judgment but that they BY sin brought a sinner to be judged and to add to their disgrace did it to tempt Christ in stead of for righteousness. They could not administer judgment since they to were guilty of and in part the self same sin making the punishment unjust. This would be a direct reflection upon God since He gave the laws and the punishments.

A person was not permitted to judge a case if he took bribes, or had respect of persons, or had something to gain, ect... - These types of sins placed the judge into and apart of the same sin being judged and therefore since they are involved in this sin, disqualified themselves from being the Judge who's judgment is righteous and Just!

Jesus showed mercy to the woman because she was being unjustly condemmed by her peers! Jesus was the true judge in this and Judged that sin (as a whole)that was open and before him (those who brought the woman) and ALL those who brought her gave testimony against themselves of their sins.
Matthew Henry comments are insightful here as well, concerning what I stated.

Matthew Henry:
"... Now it was a received opinion among the Jews, and confirmed by experience, that if the husband who brought his wife to that trial had himself been at any time guilty of adultery, Aquae non explorant ejus uxorem—The bitter water had no effect upon the wife. "Come then,’’ saith Christ, "according to your own tradition will I judge you; if you are without sin, stand to the charge, and let the adulteress be executed; but if not, though she be guilty, while you that present her are equally so, according to your own rule she shall be free...’’

Emphasis added -



The whole issue in 1 Tim concerning Paul and Gods mercy.
Paul did nothing that was outside his legal right to do and commisioning to do it.
Therefore no punishment was to be administered to or against him.

God has mercy on all men concerning salvation. IF we are to follow that God did not kill Paul who deserved it by killing His people (and we all do) then why did God Kill Ananais and Sapphira for only lying. God gave mercy to Paul for murder but sentenced these others to death for lying??

Paul also said he was least amoung the saints, just as he states he is the worst of sinners. Does either statement make him the ACTUAL worst or least! God forbid!

Show me the scriptures that tell beleivers to forgo justice (that God set up)in the name of "perfect patience".

Jesus changed God's prescribed order regarding justice:
If He would have done that He would have DIRECTLY contradicted God broken the law and been found guilty and thus completely discrediting Himself as the Messiah.

He did NOT come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it!

 

[canadyjd]

A person was not permitted to judge a case if he took bribes, or had respect of persons, or had something to gain, ect... - These types of sins placed the judge into and apart of the same sin being judged and therefore since they are involved in this sin, disqualified themselves from being the Judge who's judgment is righteous and Just!

Which is why Jesus removed the administration of the death penalty (which can't be changed once implemented) from the hands of men.

Jesus showed mercy to the woman because she was being unjustly condemmed by her peers! Jesus was the true judge in this and Judged that sin (as a whole)that was open and before him (those who brought the woman) and ALL those who brought her gave testimony against themselves of their sins.

Jesus demonstrated mercy to the woman because He chose to do so. "I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." He is God. He gets to choose whom He wants to show mercy to. As for the rest of what you said....huh????

Matthew Henry comments are insightful here as well, concerning what I stated.

Matthew Henry, quoting what?? Rabbinic talmud? Jewish old wives tales? What?,.... carries more weight than the plain meaning of the words in the text. "He who is without sin let Him be the first to throw a stone at her".

The whole issue in 1 Tim concerning Paul and Gods mercy.
Paul did nothing that was outside his legal right to do and commisioning to do it. Therefore no punishment was to be administered to or against him.

You cannot be serious. Jesus told Paul that he was persecuting Him (Jesus). Are you really saying Paul had the legal right and commission (before God?) to persecute Christ, Himself; to kill all the Christians he wanted to, and, therefore, Paul did nothing that warranted punishment? Why did God have mercy on him then, if he did nothing that warranted punishment?

God has mercy on all men concerning salvation. IF we are to follow that God did not kill Paul who deserved it by killing His people (and we all do) then why did God Kill Ananais and Sapphira for only lying. God gave mercy to Paul for murder but sentenced these others to death for lying??

The point is, God took their lives. He is God. Only He has the wisdom to do so. He took their lives, and He spared Paul's life. He has compassion on whom He will have compassion.

God didn't tell Peter to take up a sword and slay Ananias, did He? God didn't tell any Christian to kill Ananias or Sapphira, did He? No, He did not.

Paul also said he was least amoung the saints, just as he states he is the worst of sinners. Does either statement make him the ACTUAL worst or least! God forbid!

Are you saying Paul was lying to us then? That Holy Spirit inspired scripture is lying to us today? God Forbid!!!

Show me the scriptures that tell beleivers to forgo justice (that God set up)in the name of "perfect patience".

Show me where Christians are given the responsibility to administer "justice" to anyone, with the possible exception of Church discipline, and even there "justice" is not the issue.

However, as far as waiting patiently in the midst of injustice...

Rev. 6:9-11, "And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; (10) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" (11) And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also."

And there are many more.

Jesus changed God's prescribed order regarding justice:
If He would have done that He would have DIRECTLY contradicted God broken the law and been found guilty and thus completely discrediting Himself as the Messiah.

He did NOT come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it!

Then you want to institute the death penalty for sabbath breaking, correct? Jesus didn't change it, right? So it must still be in effect, right? If you want to live under the law, you have to keep them all.

peace to youraying:

 

[av1611jim]

"If you want to live under the law, you have to keep them all."

Are you suggesting we toss out the rule of law for our society?

 

[canadyjd]

"If you want to live under the law, you have to keep them all."

Are you suggesting we toss out the rule of law for our society?

I was referring to the Mosaic Law.

peace to youraying:

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I have a question. How many of you have been impressed by the Amish people's reaction to the horrific murders of their children. I have It strikes me as the very embodyment of Christ's command:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

It's hard for me to believe that anyone could be so forgiving. The majority of those posting here seem to think that they are doing wrong by forgiving their enemy.

 

[av1611jim]

I have a question. How many of you have been impressed by the Amish people's reaction to the horrific murders of their children. I have It strikes me as the very embodyment of Christ's command:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

It's hard for me to believe that anyone could be so forgiving. The majority of those posting here seem to think that they are doing wrong by forgiving their enemy.

Not impressed at all. It is what Christians do. They forgive their enemy. What has THAT got to do with the fact that God has instituted the death penalty for murderers to be meeted out by GOVERNMENT?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I am glad they can forgive - especially since we are commanded to do just that.

However, forgiveness does not mean the perpetrator should/does not have to pay the consequences of his acts.

The wages of sin is death...

I also believe that we can genuinely forgive someone without letting them back into our lives.

 

[chris777]

I have a question. How many of you have been impressed by the Amish people's reaction to the horrific murders of their children. I have It strikes me as the very embodyment of Christ's command:

It's hard for me to believe that anyone could be so forgiving. The majority of those posting here seem to think that they are doing wrong by forgiving their enemy.

I am both impressed and ashamed.

Impressed that they went to his funeral and helped set up a fund for his family.

And ashamed, that we would likely be the last to do either behavior.

As well as the dualistic mindset of bloodthirsty for those that sin, to receive punishment, yet decrying abortion, when both are murder. Yes I agree the government is appointed by God, But if you use that excuse then you have to apply it to ALL governments, Do you people agree with the administrations of all governments? God set them up to perform a specific task, much like he did when punishing Israel. Just because God sent the philistines to punish Israel, does not mean we should emulate the philistines.

 

[gekko]

I also believe that we can genuinely forgive someone without letting them back into our lives.

amen! which is why i dont agree with the death penalty - but rather fly them over the atlantic and let them try to survive on their own. (i'm gettin sick of payin taxes lol)

love your neighbor. forgive your enemies. it is not for us - nor any other human - to take the life of another human - that is God's job to deal with sin. not us.

gen 9:6 is the covenant with noah - we are in a new covenent now.