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death penalty?
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StraightAndNarrow
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Marcia said:
I believe that Christ came to usher in a second covenant with humanity. A quote from Genesis does not refute a direct command from Jesus.
Marcia
Active Member
StraightAndNarrow said:
But this new covenant does not overturn God's laws. Jesus did not go against God's laws since He wrote them, too.
The new covenant was the fulfillment of prophecy, not the overturning of God's commandments (and I don't mean just the 10 commandments). Jesus himself said not one jot or tittle would pass away.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
How does putting someone to death who has wronged you fit into Christ's command?
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
How does putting someone to death who has wronged you fit into Christ's command?
man talk about taking something and STRIPPING it of it's context.
This was not in relation to civil authority OR the Death sentence, but in fact was in about loving those who were not Jews. Every one NOT a Jew was considered outside; this includes those like the samaritians that were half Jewish. Many of those outside hated the Jewsih people and were considered there enemies. (there were also those who were not opposed to the Jewish poeple [like Samaritan} but were hated by the Jews because they were half breeds)
In any event to the Jewish people at that time all not Jewish were enemies
But Jesus was speaking of them being loving to ALL just as if ALL were Jewish. If we show love only to those that love us where is there a reward.
They again took the law to its extreme and anyone not full blooded Jew was an outcast period, even if they served the same God (again like the Samaritans)
This was not in relation to civil authority OR the Death sentence, but in fact was in about loving those who were not Jews. Every one NOT a Jew was considered outside; this includes those like the samaritians that were half Jewish. Many of those outside hated the Jewsih people and were considered there enemies. (there were also those who were not opposed to the Jewish poeple [like Samaritan} but were hated by the Jews because they were half breeds)
In any event to the Jewish people at that time all not Jewish were enemies
But Jesus was speaking of them being loving to ALL just as if ALL were Jewish. If we show love only to those that love us where is there a reward.
They again took the law to its extreme and anyone not full blooded Jew was an outcast period, even if they served the same God (again like the Samaritans)
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StraightAndNarrow said:
But in the sense of your question,
How would imprisoning anyone fit into Christ's command? Do we just let 'em go? Is that how far "turn the other cheek" is to be taken?
I agree w/allan, civil and judicial matters is not the contextual framework of the passage.
This thread was started before the amish school shootings. I wonder if any on this thread that is against Capital Punishment would say that the shooter, if he hadn't killed himself, should have just went to jail...
Because here is what Jesus says about people like him...
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Is it just me, or does that sound like Jesus supported capital punishment?
Because here is what Jesus says about people like him...
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Is it just me, or does that sound like Jesus supported capital punishment?
Hello All,
As stated earlier, I had come to be on the fence in last few years with this issue. However, again I feel strong scripture has been given supporting it or at least not condeming such justice.
Yes, I have been highly impressed with the Amish. Their forgiveness is truly as Christ teaches us. I think I would have apprehensions in sentencing someone to death. However, if the crime was as hideous as the Children being murdered with overwhelming evidence; I think I could agree with peers on that ultimate sentence.
Take care, Ralph
As stated earlier, I had come to be on the fence in last few years with this issue. However, again I feel strong scripture has been given supporting it or at least not condeming such justice.
Yes, I have been highly impressed with the Amish. Their forgiveness is truly as Christ teaches us. I think I would have apprehensions in sentencing someone to death. However, if the crime was as hideous as the Children being murdered with overwhelming evidence; I think I could agree with peers on that ultimate sentence.
Take care, Ralph
Magnetic Poles
New Member
Hi Tim,tinytim said:
No, I haven't changed my view. I believe Jesus was talking about God's punishment, not endorsing that we do so.
Besides, there are many petty crimes where the Bible endorses the death penalty, but are those which civilized people would agree doesn't warrant it (e.g. adultery, not observing sabbath, unruly son, etc. etc.)
The most ridiculous statement I have ever heard!!!
God is now not only petty in His decision to authorize the death penalty on such (and man was to carry it out) But civilized people now have the ability to critique God because He is pretty much a mornon in understanding what us true intellectuals have come to comprehend.
Sounds like your right. Paul also believed it.tinytim said:
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
That sword was not used for cutting ham!
Brother Bob
New Member
Not referring to man but to God Himself.
I did a report on the "death penalty" in college and they asked me to increase it some to make it larger and they would put it in hard back but I was too tired to continue. They first asked that I do a report in favor of death penalty but I refused and offered to do one against it.
Death penalty history is "gory" and had never deterred crime except the one they kill. I want them put away but I am against the "death penalty".
Brother Bob
New Member
I take it to mean the Avenging angel, sent by God. You don't think God gave the minister the right to use a sword do you?
This is from Wuest's Word Studies:
The word "minister" is diakonos, "a servant as seen in his activity." The civil magistrate, saved or unsaved, is a servant of God in the sense that since God has instituted human government as a means of regulating the affairs of the human race, a magistrate who carries out the law, acts as a servant of God. As to the sword which the magistrate wears, Vincent says; "Borne as a symbol of the magistrate's right to inflict capital punishment. Thus Ulpian, 'They who rule a whole province, have the right to the sword.' The Emperor Trajan presented to a provincial governor, on starting for his province, a dagger, with the words, 'For me. If I deserve it, in me.' " Alford comments; "In ancient times and modern times, the sword has been carried before sovereigns. It betokens the power of capital punishment: and the reference to it here is among the many testimonies borne by Scripture against the attempt to abolish the infliction of the penalty of death for crime in Christian states."
The word "minister" is diakonos, "a servant as seen in his activity." The civil magistrate, saved or unsaved, is a servant of God in the sense that since God has instituted human government as a means of regulating the affairs of the human race, a magistrate who carries out the law, acts as a servant of God. As to the sword which the magistrate wears, Vincent says; "Borne as a symbol of the magistrate's right to inflict capital punishment. Thus Ulpian, 'They who rule a whole province, have the right to the sword.' The Emperor Trajan presented to a provincial governor, on starting for his province, a dagger, with the words, 'For me. If I deserve it, in me.' " Alford comments; "In ancient times and modern times, the sword has been carried before sovereigns. It betokens the power of capital punishment: and the reference to it here is among the many testimonies borne by Scripture against the attempt to abolish the infliction of the penalty of death for crime in Christian states."
Brother Bob
New Member
So Saddam was justified in killing all those kurds and others. I know you will say "Christian States" but this was probably written where Saddam is.
The Sword in vain is not the majestrates. You think Bill Clinton was ordained of God. It is talking about God's rulers, not some Saddam. You understanding of the scripture would include every little rinky dinky deputy that has a badge.
Romans, chapter 13
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Dan 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.Brother Bob said:
Was Nebuchadnezzar saved? God appointed him ruler.
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