death penalty?

[ituttut]

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Not ambiguous at all, but some wish to make it so

 

[gb93433]

I am for the death penalty because God commands it in Gen. 9 and upholds it in Romans 13. I would rather unjustly suffer the death penalty than to give all the murderers a free pass. The death penalty is not a deterrent now because people use the system and get years and years of appeals and such. Return to the days when the criminal gets a fair trial followed by a speedy hanging, the deterrent effect of the death penalty will return.

I don't know of any free passes that have happened in countries where there is not the death penalty. In fact it would be much easier to show how America has a much higher crime rate than quite a number of countries that do not have the death penalty.

What if you were an innocent victim of the judicial system. The reason I ask is that I have a friend who does represent people on death row. We used ot have some discussions about the death penalty until he began to tell me some of his experiences of some not having a fair trial. I asked him if there was ever a time when he was sure that the person had not committed the crime. He told me twice. At the time he had been a lawyer for about five years.

We know for a fact that innocent people have been executed in the past. How would like being one of those or if that were your mom or dad and one of them were wrongfully exectuted.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

retracted statement.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In the case of my foster brother shooting the lady for 50 dollars, he admitted to it. Mrs Winslow died that same hour she was shot.

Joe?? He has been serving time for 25 years since that date.

The girl who shot my cousin a couple weeks ago admitted to shooting her and is out on bond.

Amber was unarmed and six months pregnant.

Wonder what kind of bleeding heart liberal will think of the sanctity of life and not of the pain that this girl has caused my family?

What kind of message are we sending to future killers when they see killers living the life of reilly behind bars? Prisoners are allowed to rent videos, order pizza and other delivery food from fast food restaraunts, some even have access to computer and internet. What kind of punishment is that?

Don't believe me? Try watching 'Lockup' on MSNBC.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

What kind of message are we sending to future killers when they see killers living the life of reilly behind bars? Prisoners are allowed to rent videos, order pizza and other delivery food from fast food restaraunts, some even have access to computer and internet. What kind of punishment is that?

Those must be minimum prisons.

All of the medium and maximum prisons I am acquainted with where convicted murderers are kept enjoy none of the priviliges you mentioned.

I am for the death penalty. Just wanted to refute the prison conditions you noted. They are wrong, in the prisons where I have been inside, via a prison ministry.

The 30+ prisoners I have contact with, on a regular basis, have none of those privileges and they did not murder anyone...

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I was involved with prison ministry on the east coast back in the late 80's. One of the prisons I ministered in was Lorton Correctional Facility in Lorton, Va. They allowed much of what I mentioned.

Also, if you watch 'Lockup' on MSNBC (check times in your area), you will see those on death row in many prisons theh feature do in fact have those luxuries. They are let out of their cells only one hour a day to shower and excercise, but in their cells, they do have pizza's delivered, rented videos, and other luxuries.

Computer and Internet is not allowed in the cells, but it is allowed during their one hour under close supervision.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I was involved with prison ministry on the east coast back in the late 80's. One of the prisons I ministered in was Lorton Correctional Facility in Lorton, Va. They allowed much of what I mentioned.

Also, if you watch 'Lockup' on MSNBC (check times in your area), you will see those on death row in many prisons theh feature do in fact have those luxuries. They are let out of their cells only one hour a day to shower and excercise, but in their cells, they do have pizza's delivered, rented videos, and other luxuries.

Computer and Internet is not allowed in the cells, but it is allowed during their one hour under close supervision.

Yeah, life in a small cell 23 hours a day, with an open commode and overcrowding is living in the lap of luxury!

 

[Terry_Herrington]

I was involved with prison ministry on the east coast back in the late 80's. One of the prisons I ministered in was Lorton Correctional Facility in Lorton, Va. They allowed much of what I mentioned.

Also, if you watch 'Lockup' on MSNBC (check times in your area), you will see those on death row in many prisons theh feature do in fact have those luxuries. They are let out of their cells only one hour a day to shower and excercise, but in their cells, they do have pizza's delivered, rented videos, and other luxuries.

Computer and Internet is not allowed in the cells, but it is allowed during their one hour under close supervision.

I have looked at the MSNBC website and have done a search concerning death row inmates. I can find nothing to substantiated your claims about death row inmates having the privileges you mention. Please provide a source for your information.

 

[ituttut]

I think that Church and State should be absolutely separate. This is not saying the state provides compassion because it is churchlike, but because we are civilized human beings.

We are, but how about all those others? But I am for the State and the church being separate.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have looked at the MSNBC website and have done a search concerning death row inmates. I can find nothing to substantiated your claims about death row inmates having the privileges you mention. Please provide a source for your information.

Try watching the program rather than reading the website. Linda and I both have seen the show on many occasions, and while not all maximum prisons hold to the same rules governing the things inmates can have, several are allowed amenities based on behavior and position.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Yeah, life in a small cell 23 hours a day, with an open commode and overcrowding is living in the lap of luxury!

Cells are small, but that does not keep them from renting videos or ordering fast food.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I don't know of any free passes that have happened in countries where there is not the death penalty. In fact it would be much easier to show how America has a much higher crime rate than quite a number of countries that do not have the death penalty.

What if you were an innocent victim of the judicial system. The reason I ask is that I have a friend who does represent people on death row. We used ot have some discussions about the death penalty until he began to tell me some of his experiences of some not having a fair trial. I asked him if there was ever a time when he was sure that the person had not committed the crime. He told me twice. At the time he had been a lawyer for about five years.

We know for a fact that innocent people have been executed in the past. How would like being one of those or if that were your mom or dad and one of them were wrongfully exectuted.

Not to challenge you, but, do you, or any of your friends, have some statistics to show the ratio of those innocent but executed versus those who were truly guilty and executed ?

That is why there is a long drawn out system of appeals, I think. To provide those sentenced to death the opportunity to be heard by higher courts, and the evidence against them reviewed, and the sentence commuted or overturned if needed.

On the investigative level, I think that to avoid execution of innocent persons, if it is proven during appeals, or if it turns out after the fact of execution, that the convict was innocent, then repercussions ought to be felt all the way down to the investigating officer and all the way up to the prosecution.

Fire them, deny them retirement benefits, strip them of all honors, and then send them to jail: FOR LIFE without the possibility of parole.

That ought to stop fabrication of evidence, or personal motives, or sloppy detective work.

 

[canadyjd]

,,,this passage is weak to support your view because there is strong evidence it was not in the original manuscript -- did you read the notes I posted on that?

I have read the notes you posted. Thank you for the info. I am aware of the issues surrounding the passage. My N.T. Greek prof. would agree with you, but would add he believed it was an authentic pericope, just not original to John. He didn't consider it scripture either.

As far me, I see the work of Holy Spirit in bringing about the canon. The early church (and there is early attestation of the pericope, just not in John) believed it to be authentic and kept it in the canon. Therefore, I consider it inspired and authoritative. I understand we will disagree at this point.

Jesus did show love, compassion and mercy, but he was about much more than that. He talked more about hell than love and never spoke against God's law. In Revelation, we read how he will come and the imagery is pretty fierce. In the gospels, Jesus told people they would be cast into outer darkness and gnash their teeth, that they would perish, that they were whitewashed tombs, that their hearts were wicked, etc. He could be loving and gentle but also showed no tolerance for sin.

Obviously, Jesus is God, and thus has the Divine wisdom and Divine righteousness to make those decisions. That is not something He has given to His followers.

I do not think being patient contradicts supporting the death penalty, nor do I think this passage has to do with convicted murderers.

and

1 Timothy was written to Timothy, giving him advice on leading a church. The patience is, I believe, for Timothy to remember as he deals with those in the church or those the church is evangelizing. It does not mean the death penalty is wrong. I see no application to the death penalty at all.

First, supporting the death of someone is so obviously contrary to an attitude of "perfect patience" that I am surprised you would even try to make that argument. Again, I disagree (strongly) with you here.

Second, the context of the passage is specifically concerning the Apostle Paul, who identifies himself as the "worst" of sinners (a violent agressor and persecutor of the church). In other passages we know Paul was responsible for the death of Christians. He was a murderer. And that in light of just saying the Law was for "murderers" and "those who kill fathers and mothers" among others.

It does speak of all sinners. However, you must ignore the obvious context in this passage to say it has nothing to do with murderers. Paul is certainly making the point that Jesus Christ wants future believers (not just Timothy) to have the same kind of perfect patience with the worst of sinners that He demonstrated (for our instruction, example to follow) with Paul. He says "those who would believe". "Those" means more than one. It means every single future believer should have the same attitude of perfect patience.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Consider this passage from Luke when the Samaritians refused to receive Jesus.

Luke 9: 54-56 "And when His desciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them? (55) But He turned and rebuked them and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; (56) for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them".

The desciples of Jesus are not to destroy men's lives, but save them. That is the "spirit" (attitude?) that we are to have.

peace to youraying:

 

[av1611jim]

We as Christians should seek to lead sinners to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. That is why there are so many good Jail and Prison Ministries in this country. We (I am a Jail and Prison minister) go as Jesus commanded us in Matthew 28.

God on the other hand has ordained Government for the purpose of maintaining peaceful societies. Other Governments may and do fail miserably at this task but ours does a pretty good job of it. Should we refuse to meet out justice, ours would be a society of anarchy. Remember this, and burn it into your brain...: "Be not DECEIVED God is NOT mocked. For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." This is a law which no man, saved or lost, can deny. Ya' plant corn, ya' gunna git corn, buddy!

Paul and Peter both have commanded us to be obedient to our Governments. See Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2. In BOTH passages these APOSTLES of Our Lord and Saviour and God explain the purpose of Government. It is to punish evildoers.

God, who is the same yesterday, today and forever, commanded the death penalty waaaaaaay back in Genesis for he who sheds another man's blood. This same God who said it in Genesis 9, is the same one who died for your and my sins.

Therefore: it is ludicrous to claim that Jesus never taught the death penalty. "I and my Father are one !!!!!

And finally, we Christians, do NOT seek the death of anyone. It is God who COMMANDED it.

Just a reminder for you 'pro-murderers'.


The death penalty is for governments to mete out. We as Christians ought to seek the salvation of the condemned.
My question for all you "bleeding heart liberals".

How often on a monthly basis are YOU taking the Gospel to them in prison?

Mt 25:31
¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mt 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mt 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mt 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mt 25:35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mt 25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mt 25:37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mt 25:38
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mt 25:39
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mt 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mt 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mt 25:43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mt 25:44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mt 25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mt 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Just a reminder for you 'pro-murderers'.


The death penalty is for governments to mete out. We as Christians ought to seek the salvation of the condemned.

My question for all you "bleeding heart liberals".

How often on a monthly basis are YOU taking the Gospel to them in prison?

I must be both!

I am pro-capital punishment, but I do not mete out the death sentence.

I also have a monthly prison ministry.

 

[av1611jim]

I must be both!

I am pro-capital punishment, but I do not mete out the death sentence.

I also have a monthly prison ministry.

You ARE confused aren't you???!!!!:thumbs: (Joking)

What follows is not Joke.

Unfortunately, I cannot sit on a jury or I would put my mouth where my convictions are. Yet God in His mercy has allowed me, a former felon, to have both a jail and a prison ministry.

See, I HAVE been on the inside looking out and I STILL stand for the ultimate penalty for the ultimate crime against mankind.

And Yes, A THOUSAND TIMES YES! Inmates do have it easy on the inside.
They have absolutely no responsibilities. Their food is cooked for them, then someone else cleans the dishes. Someone else does their laundry, pays the utilities, and the rent. Someone else pays the cable bill, builds their rec centers, their ball fields and their running track. Someone else builds their libraries, and pays their Attorney fees. Someone elsepays for their education if they want one and then someone else pays them a small wage if they want some kind of work on the inside. So you see, they PAY FOR NOTHING, NOT EVEN THEIR CRIME.

That is unless you call a fully funded paid vacation a payment for their crime.

Give me a break. Some of you folks ain't using your head for what it was given you for.

 

[MrCorey]

Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Rom 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.


in Him;
-c-

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Do prisoners have it easy? Jim, you are undoubtedly correct, in some jurisdictions. There are others were life inside the walls is total hell on earth. When I lived outside of Sugar Land, TX, the prison farm there had the prisoners working the farm to grow their own food, put them on highway cleaning detail, and other work. It was not a retirement community. Texas had such overcrowding that they had prisoner living in tents. I have yet to see a golf course at a prison. Even at the "good" prisons, taking a persons freedom is a high price for them to pay, taken care of or not.

One thing this country needs to do is to stop imprisoning people for things like possession of small amounts of marijuana. That would clear lots of court dockets and make more space in jails. The US incarcerates a much larger percentage of its population than most other countries. Something is horribly broken here.

Is the death penalty a deterrent? I don't think so. Texas executes so often that if it were, you'd think there would be little to no murder in that state. Sadly, it isn't true. Murders are typically crimes of passion. The perpetrator doesn't stop to think, "Hmmm...if I kill, I might be executed."

A civilized society must come up with a better way.

 

[Marcia]

posted by canadyjd
First, supporting the death of someone is so obviously contrary to an attitude of "perfect patience" that I am surprised you would even try to make that argument. Again, I disagree (strongly) with you here.

Well, I think we are just going to disagree. I don't think the perfect patience means that we are to abrogate the death penalty from Gen 9.6 or implied in Rom 13, or even in the preceding verses of 1 Tim 1, as I pointed out.

Second, the context of the passage is specifically concerning the Apostle Paul, who identifies himself as the "worst" of sinners (a violent agressor and persecutor of the church). In other passages we know Paul was responsible for the death of Christians. He was a murderer. And that in light of just saying the Law was for "murderers" and "those who kill fathers and mothers" among others.

It does speak of all sinners. However, you must ignore the obvious context in this passage to say it has nothing to do with murderers. Paul is certainly making the point that Jesus Christ wants future believers (not just Timothy) to have the same kind of perfect patience with the worst of sinners that He demonstrated (for our instruction, example to follow) with Paul. He says "those who would believe". "Those" means more than one. It means every single future believer should have the same attitude of perfect patience.

But Paul was not a convicted murderer. He participated in the executions under Jewish law, apparently, and even though he was killing believers, it was not murder in the eyes of the law or he would have been imprisoned.

How can we apply this passage if it pertains to convicted murderers? You believe it means to not execute them, but then what do we do with Gen 9.6 and the other passages I mentioned? I see no conflict in witnessing to prisoners and supporting the death penalty. No one is going to be executed before he is saved, if God wants him saved.

In fact, I believe it is against the sanctity of life to be opposed to the death penalty, according to the Lord's statement in Gen 9.6.