death penalty?

[canadyjd]

Any of you guys/gals who are anti-death penalty care to address Gal. 6:7? I thought not.

Gal. 6:7 is not speaking of the death penalty. It is addressed to Christians who are behaving in unChristlike ways. They are allowing the flesh and its evil influences to hamper their walk in the Spirit.

5:19 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, (20) idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, .......

5:22 "but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

5:24 "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires...

Gal. 6:7, in context, in no way implies or commands Christians to seek or support the death of anyone. It has nothing to do with the death penalty.

Now, would you care to address I Tim. 1:16?

peace to youraying:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Just adding a point, this is supposed to be a simple discussion about whether or not one agrees with the death penalty. Why all the petty sniping and name calling. State your position, make an argument based on facts, and recognize others will disagree with you.

 

[El_Guero]

MP

Do you realize the logical conclusion of your premise?

:wavey:

Just adding a point, this is supposed to be a simple discussion about whether or not one agrees with the death penalty. Why all the petty sniping and name calling. State your position, make an argument based on facts, and recognize others will disagree with you.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

MP

Do you realize the logical conclusion of your premise?

:wavey:

Yep. We'd probably have a civil discussion based on rationality rather than bickering. I often wonder, do people act like this with their church family? Do the pastors who engage in this on here act like that toward the members of their church.

Is it too much to show some of the love of Christ to our brothers & sisters, realizing people will disagree on things, and that we are all in different places in our Christian walk? I do my best to abide by that myself. Where I fail, I pray others will see past that and see Christ.

 

[El_Guero]

Yep. We'd probably have a civil discussion based on rationality rather than bickering. I often wonder, do people act like this with their church family? Do the pastors who engage in this on here act like that toward the members of their church.

Is it too much to show some of the love of Christ to our brothers & sisters, realizing people will disagree on things, and that we are all in different places in our Christian walk? I do my best to abide by that myself. Where I fail, I pray others will see past that and see Christ.

You are on good behavior tonight . . . I will return the courtesy . . .

God bless :wavey:

 

[Marcia]

I see no command for Christians to seek or support the death of anyone.

peace to youraying:

What about Gen 9.6?

Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God
He made man.

I don't "seek" the death penalty and I think it should be given only under certain circumstances (in fact, the death penalty can be required only in certain cases prescibed by law), but I can't think of anywhere in the Bible Gen 9.6 was abrogated.

 

[Su Wei]

canadyjd, before examining 1 Tim 1:16, could back up a couple of verses to 1 Tim 1:9?


1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Before sin, there was no law. God had to create law, not for the righteous but the lawless and disobedient. The law must serve the whole society. not just pious christians who believe that forgiveness will save the day and solve all problems, win murderers to Christ.

In our day and age, we have already much watered down the kinds of crimes that deserved the death penalty.


examples of the death penalty in the OT:
Deut 13 :6 - 11 death penalty for someone who will lead another to worship other gods.
v 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Deut 21: 18- 21 death penalty for the stubborn and rebellious son.
v 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


Soul winning is not the point of crime and punishment. The death penalty is designed, among other things, to scare others who are even considering performing crime to think twice. They will pay with their lives. Can you see this point?

Do not try to thwart the will of God. If He says there are sins that are punishable by death, then it would be right to carry it out. That is His design for a safe and lawful society. would you live in a safe and lawful society if murderers and rapists were to simply get a slap on the wrist and a promise of love and forgiveness?


I read this in the following verses, and this will sure sicken and confuse you, is this the same God you worship who commanded the following, how to dispose of a body of a hung criminal?:

Deuteronomy 21:22-23 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

 

[Marcia]

The death penalty in the Old Testament was part of the covenant between God and Israel. It was part of a theocratic government.

Actually, it was first given in Gen. 9 - see post above.

I am not a big proponent of the death penalty - I am really more on the fence and didn't even vote in this poll. But I haven't seen any good biblical arguments against the death penalty, and Gen 9.6 is speaking loud and clear.

In fact, this shows how much God values life -- the consequence for ending that life in murder is payment with your own life. Murder is attacking the image of God in man.

Interested in responses to this.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Actually, it was first given in Gen. 9 - see post above.

I am not a big proponent of the death penalty - I am really more on the fence and didn't even vote in this poll. But I haven't seen any good biblical arguments against the death penalty, and Gen 9.6 is speaking loud and clear.

In fact, this shows how much God values life -- the consequence for ending that life in murder is payment with your own life. Murder is attacking the image of God in man.

Interested in responses to this.

I'm pretty close to you on this topic Marcia. I have heard good arguments pro and con the death penalty from both biblical and secular sources. And I agree, Gen 9:6 is pretty difficult to argue against.

And yet throughout the OT, we often see the theme of God wanting showing grace and give chances to those who deserved death. ie. David and Uriah, Nineveh, Israel's repeated idolatry and even Sodom in God's conversation with Abraham in Gen 18.

I agree that murder deserves capital punishment and that this is just. But I can't ignore the grace that God shows us in parts of the OT that becomes a booming theme of the NT.

Like you, I haven't voted, am on the fence for this one and can see some validity in both sides of this argument.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

For someone to claim to be pro-life, and I'm certain most of us would make that claim, and narrow that to unborn children only is not a supportable Christian position. The broader perspective, the sanctity of human life, is to support and respect the right of all human beings to live. We are all precious in God's sight. After all, He sent His son to die for all of us. How can we put someone to death that Christ died to save?

 

[webdog]

Christians are in no way obligated to support something that is contrary to what God has taught us in His Word.

peace to youraying:

...and His Word supports capital punishment.

 

[webdog]

Actually, it was first given in Gen. 9 - see post above.

I am not a big proponent of the death penalty - I am really more on the fence and didn't even vote in this poll. But I haven't seen any good biblical arguments against the death penalty, and Gen 9.6 is speaking loud and clear.

In fact, this shows how much God values life -- the consequence for ending that life in murder is payment with your own life. Murder is attacking the image of God in man.

Interested in responses to this.

If Gen. 9 speaks loud and clear, how can you be "on the fence"?

 

[webdog]

The broader perspective, the sanctity of human life, is to support and respect the right of all human beings to live.

Is this the view of the murderer?

We are all precious in God's sight. After all, He sent His son to die for all of us. How can we put someone to death that Christ died to save

Ask God since He is the one who commanded capital punishment.

 

[Jack Matthews]

Either all life is sacred, or no life is.

No one is righteous. Is some sin worse than other sin?

The argument that a lot of you are putting forth here, aside from being legalistic, is that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to cover all sin, and therefore the state must intervene and execute. It is an anti-grace argument. Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sin, and his followers should be the most understanding of exactly what that grace did for us spiritually. I would certainly not want to put myself in the position of being God and determining whether or not they lived or died.

 

[rsr]

In our day and age, we have already much watered down the kinds of crimes that deserved the death penalty.

Indeed we have. According to the Old Testament, the death penalty was required for adultery, cursing your parents and working on the sabbath.

In 1815, England had more than 200 crimes carrying the death penalty, including stealing goods valued at five shillings or more, poaching, blacking yourself at night, cutting down trees and being in the company of gypsies for a month. Ah, for the good old days.

The death penalty is designed, among other things, to scare others who are even considering performing crime to think twice. They will pay with their lives. Can you see this point?

Not really. The death penalty as a deterrent seems to have little or no effect. (Except, of course, to make sure the person executed can't commit another crime.) It's only really effective is preventing violations of minor laws. A death penalty for jaywalkers, for example, would probably be a very effective deterrent.

Do not try to thwart the will of God. If He says there are sins that are punishable by death, then it would be right to carry it out. That is His design for a safe and lawful society. would you live in a safe and lawful society if murderers and rapists were to simply get a slap on the wrist and a promise of love and forgiveness?

How is life in prison a slap on the wrist?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Don't confuse sin and crime. Although all sin makes us worthy of death, God prescribed different punishments for different crimes. Some crimes simply demanded restitution, while others demanded capital punishment. (Not all killing is murder, and some killing is condoned, but murder is never condoned.)

There's nothing in the NT that changes God's command for the death penalty, and even when it is used by secular governments, it's not condemned. Paul even said that if that was his punishment, he'd accept it.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

That is some pretty classic back-pedalling. I guess that is a lot easier than being careful about what we say the first time around or admitting we made a mistake.

Backpedaling, my foot!

I wouldn't seriously say something on here and then claim to not mean what I actually said.

In case you haven't figured it out by now, I'm very opinionated and don't mind sticking my neck out. Know why? Because it really doesn't matter to me too awful much what anyone out there in cyberspace thinks of me. I know where my heart is, and I know what I believe, and I know what I said and why I said it.

If you'll read the 2nd post of this thread, you'll notice that I quoted nearly exactly from that, except that I put my spin on it. I did that to "stir the pot" a little, which I so love to do.

I didn't make a mistake in what I wrote. I was making a joke out the person's comments about all of us who agree with the death penalty being unChristlike. That was a silly notion which deserved an equally silly reply.

I do not backpedal, I do not deny things which I write.

Hope that helps you understand now.

 

[Revmitchell]

Either all life is sacred, or no life is.

No one is righteous. Is some sin worse than other sin?

The argument that a lot of you are putting forth here, aside from being legalistic, is that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to cover all sin, and therefore the state must intervene and execute. It is an anti-grace argument. Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sin, and his followers should be the most understanding of exactly what that grace did for us spiritually. I would certainly not want to put myself in the position of being God and determining whether or not they lived or died.

Who said that? I am interested in seeing the many quotes to that effect.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I can appreciate arguments that are supportive of the death penalty, but this one has no basis in fact. Where does Christ say this or model this behaviour?

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Genesis 9:6

 

[Gold Dragon]

If you'll read the 2nd post of this thread, you'll notice that I quoted nearly exactly from that, except that I put my spin on it. I did that to "stir the pot" a little, which I so love to do.

The post you "spun" had validity to it. Your "spin" had none.

I didn't make a mistake in what I wrote. I was making a joke out the person's comments about all of us who agree with the death penalty being unChristlike.

It was a pretty bad joke because nobody laughed and nobody got your point because it was a horrible point.

That was a silly notion which deserved an equally silly reply.

After your "joke", I saw that the notion you tried to "spin" was a good one because of how false your "spin" on it was.

I do not deny things which I write.

It is difficult for some of us to admit we make mistakes. I make mistakes in my writing all the time and when others point it out to me, I try to apologize for them and appreciate their correction. That is one of the reasons I post on this board, to have my thoughts challenged and corrected.