The bible says that the saints in heaven present our prayers to God. It's in revelation 5:8.
Define Idolatry
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JarJo, Feb 9, 2012.
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Are you disobedient to God? -
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EVERTHING that God intends for us to know is in the Bible...
NOTHING else that we need to learn/know/do in the spiritual sense id any where else!
it is the final/supreme/only source of divine revelation to us. period! -
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That's just my honest opinion after reading what people on both sides say. *shrug* I did my best and came up with that. So since I did my best to understand I expect God will let it slide if I was wrong. -
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What you are doing is exactly what the Bible condemns - trying to contact created spirits to help you on earth through what you conceive them to be mediators between you and God.
No room for Mary or any other departed Saints as they don't fit the "God" pattern.
You are asking the spirit you apply to to USURP Jesus Christ just as the priest/pope is a usurper of Jesus Christ.
God is omniscient and omnipresent! There is no need for this paganistic practice that declares God is not omniscient and omnipresent but USURPS God.
Your practice contradicts the scriptural limitation to Jesus Christ being the only Mediator/intecessor between men on earth and God in heaven.
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8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Hmmm... looks like the 24 elders interceeded betwen God and man by grabing and collecting the prayers of those on earth. It looks like God gave them the authority to do that.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑WestminsterMan said: ↑there is only one intercessor - you'll just have to go directly to Jesus!" Since mediation and intercession are the same and all... ;).
That is right!
I will never come to you and ask you to TAKE MY PLACE in going to God. I will ask you to pray WITH me as I direct MY PRAY TO GOD and while you direct your prayer TO GOD!
There is not one precept or example in Scripture where any saved person ever addressed a spirit by any way you interpret the word "pray" or "prayer" except that Spirit being God outside of paganism.
That is your intepretation. The vials full of odors are said to be the prayers of the saints. It does not say the saints addressed these prayers to the 24 elders or the four beasts. This is merely a symbolic jesture that justifes Christ taking the book and claiming back the earth and carrying out the prayers of the saints.
Mediation is intercession but not all intercession is mediation.
When saints on earth pray WITH us to God for our needs that is interecessory pray. They do not pray FOR us - meaning we do not forfeit our right to directly address God through Jesus Christ by instead addressing our prayers to them and then from them they transfer our prayers to them unto to God - that is paganism and that is Roman Catholicism.
Jesus is the only mediator and therefore our prayers are dircted through him and thus to him in the sense of a mediator but their destination is to the Father which receives them through Christ. Our prayers are empowered by the Holy Spirit, meaning he leads us how to pray according to the will of God (Rom. 8:26-27). Hence, the whole Godhead is involved in our true praying. Christ stands as the IMMEDIATE object of prayer because he is the MEDIATOR through which our prayers proceed to the Father.
The ONLY term that stands for RELIGIOUS praying in the scriptures is "proseuchomai" and it only has God for its addresee. All other terms do not necessarily constitute RELIGOUS praying. RELIGIOUS praying is worship and always is worship in the Scriptures.
No, it does not. Prove that the prayers in the vials were directed toward the 24 elders and beasts! You can't! Hence, it is a MOOT passage. Like the cults you are forced to go to higly symbolic and ambiguous texts in Revelation to establish a major practice (JW's Rev. 7; SDA - Rev. 12-14; etc.).
You don't understand what I said. There is a distinction between intercessory prayer and acting as a Mediator. Christ as our Mediator makes intercession in our behalf , because we are not in heaven and He is, we cannot come personally before the throne of God but he can.
However, saints on earth cannot act as a Mediator intercessor because they are not in heaven. They can pray WITH us by directing their prayers to the same MEDIATOR we address our prayers. However, they cannot take the place of the Mediator either in being the object of our RELIGIOUS praying or bringing our prayers before the Father in heaven.
Neither can spirits in heaven take the place of Christ as our Mediator in regard to RELIGIOUS prayers. First, because our RELIGIOUS prayers are directed to God through Christ and not to them. Second, because they are not appointed Mediators of our prayers in heaven. They do not take our prayers unto the Father as that is the work of Jesus Christ in heaven as it is where he acts as MEDIATOR between man on earth and God in heaven.
False! Revelation 5:8 are SYMBOLIC of the temple in heaven where God is enthroned. This text does not say such prayers were directed to anyone but God. The symbolism simply portrays the time for God to answer those prayers by His wrath toward the kingdom of Satan.
It is the same thing when it is RELIGIOUS veneration and all RELIGIOUS praying is veneration/worship. Again, the only term in scripture used for RELIGIOUS praying is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER directed to anyone in heaven but God.
Oh yes it does, because it is Roman Catholicism that "Christianized" Roman Cybel by the name of "Mary."Click to expand...
That means, no spirit in heaven can take the place of Christ in heaven doing this work in behalf of men who live on earth. Those in Rev. 5:8 are never said to be the objects/addressees/mediators of such prayers.
That means, no man on earth can take the place of Christ the focus/object/addressee of YOUR RELIGIOUS PRAYING. They can pray WITH you UNTO the same mediator and addressee in heaven = intercessory prayer - BUT they cannot be the addresse of your religious praying as both you and them become blasphemers in doing so. You become a blasphemer because religious praying is directed to God not to men and thus you blasphemed by idolatry - putting a man in the place of God. The person on earth who has the gall to receive such religious praying as the MEDIATOR between you and God in heaven is a blasphemer because he has placed himself in the place of God as the object of religous praying.
There is only one term used in scripture for RELIGIOUS PRAYING or prayers that have as their final destination God in heaven and that is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER EVER directed toward men on earth or created spirits in heaven.Click to expand... -
The Biblicist said: ↑Here is the bottom line. In heaven there is but ONE MEDIATOR between men on earth and God in heaven - 1 Tim. 2:5
That means, no spirit in heaven can take the place of Christ in heaven doing this work in behalf of men who live on earth. Those in Rev. 5:8 are never said to be the objects/addressees/mediators of such prayers.
That means, no man on earth can take the place of Christ the focus/object/addressee of YOUR RELIGIOUS PRAYING. They can pray WITH you UNTO the same mediator and addressee in heaven = intercessory prayer - BUT they cannot be the addresse of your religious praying as both you and them become blasphemers in doing so. You become a blasphemer because religious praying is directed to God not to men and thus you blasphemed by idolatry - putting a man in the place of God. The person on earth who has the gall to receive such religious praying as the MEDIATOR between you and God in heaven is a blasphemer because he has placed himself in the place of God as the object of religous praying.
There is only one term used in scripture for RELIGIOUS PRAYING or prayers that have as their final destination God in heaven and that is "proseuchomai" and it is NEVER EVER directed toward men on earth or created spirits in heaven.Click to expand...
Look...you are not going to change my mind that there is a difference between mediation and intercession as its clear that they are not synonomous. You won't be able to change my mind that all prayer, kneeling, bowing must be worship in a religious context. You need all of this to true just to keep your argument from falling apart. Ultimately, you can keep harping with the same worn out opinions, but it's not going to matter. You simply do not convince.
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Deleted...duplicate post.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterWestminsterMan said: ↑Like I said...total hog wash. No one (except you) is claiming that anything gets done without God granting it. He can do anything He wants regardless of your protestations limiting Him to your little theological box.Click to expand...
You are wrong and the proof is you have no intelligent responses to the evidences presented you!
WestminsterMan said: ↑Look...you are not going to change my mind that there is a difference between mediation and intercession as its clear that they are not synonomous.Click to expand...
I proved they were synononmous only in regard to the Person of Jesus Christ as Mediator but not synonyms when humans make intercessory prayers - you flip flop!
WestminsterMan said: ↑You won't be able to change my mind that all prayer, kneeling, bowing must be worship in a religious context. You need all of this to true just to keep your argument from falling apart. Ultimately, you can keep harping with the same worn out opinions, but it's not going to matter. You simply do not convince.
WMClick to expand...
1. Proseuchomai is NEVER directed toward anyone but God
2. Prosechomai is always used for RELIGIOUS PRAYING
3. No other term is ever used to address ANYONE in heaven but prosechomai.
Hence, it is a technical term for "religious praying" and religious praying is ALWAYS WORSHIP.
When you RELIGOUSLY kneel and bow before something created and pray toward something created you are committing Idolatry. Non-religiously kneeling and bowing before kings, or men in positions of authority is merely respect for the office - giving honor to whom honor is due. There is no RELIGIOUS connotation involved. However, if the political/governmental figure is demanding RELIGIOUS veneration then it is idolatry to bow, kneel or pray to them as it is toward anything created on earth or in heaven but God. These are the facts whether you like them or not.
These facts condemn Roman Catholicism as a Pagan religion doing pagan religious worship to demons. -
The Biblicist said: ↑I placed substantive evidence before you and you respond by insults and diminuative attacks!
You are wrong and the proof is you have no intelligent responses to the evidences presented you!Click to expand...
I proved they were synononmous only in regard to the Person of Jesus Christ as Mediator but not synonyms when humans make intercessory prayers - you flip flop!Click to expand...
Facts are still facts whether you agree or disagree with them. The facts are:
1. Proseuchomai is NEVER directed toward anyone but God
2. Prosechomai is always used for RELIGIOUS PRAYING
3. No other term is ever used to address ANYONE in heaven but prosechomai.
Hence, it is a technical term for "religious praying" and religious praying is ALWAYS WORSHIP.Click to expand...
No matter how much you polish a turd...it's still a turd.
When you RELIGOUSLY kneel and bow before something created and pray toward something created you are committing Idolatry. Non-religiously kneeling and bowing before kings, or men in positions of authority is merely respect for the office - giving honor to whom honor is due. There is no RELIGIOUS connotation involved. However, if the political/governmental figure is demanding RELIGIOUS veneration then it is idolatry to bow, kneel or pray to them as it is toward anything created on earth or in heaven but God. These are the facts whether you like them or not.Click to expand...
These facts condemn Roman Catholicism as a Pagan religion doing pagan religious worship to demons.Click to expand...
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WestminsterMan said: ↑Well then, I guess I agree. That view is one of PRIMA Scriptura - not SOLA Scriptura.
WMClick to expand...
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