Warm Christian greetings!
To be dead spiritually means to be unable to do anything to turn to the Lord unless He turns you to Himself by His Holy Spirit.
Lazarus was physically dead in the tomb, he could not do a thing to bring himself alive and walk out of the tomb, Christ did it all. So it is with being spiritually dead.
To say that some choose Christ, and not others because of "freewill" is to say that you are better because you chose Christ, and your neighbour didn't. That is spiritual pride. Salvation is all of grace - the reason people don't like Calvinistic theology is because it strikes at the root of the proud sinful nature we all have.
Kind regards
Robert J Hutton
Define...
Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Aug 5, 2002.
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Well said, Robert.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org -
If you chose to surrender to God because you like the idea of a Messiah, you are not enamored with sin, and you didn't harden your heart against Him, how does that not make you better morally (or less evil) than the one who doesn't surrender because he hates the idea of a Messiah, he is loves sin, etc.....?
I'm not trying to "paint" anything...I just don't understand how the answers given by freewillers to this question are not contradictions:
I understood how much I needed Christ, and he didn't....and yet I'm not smarter.
I didn't love my sin as much as He did....but I'm not better.
I saw my need, and he didn't....but I'm not more enlightened.
How can these statements be true, and yet the one who makes the right moral choice not be better IN SOME WAY than the one who didn't?
PS. You are welcome to say that this is an area of paradox or mystery in your position. ;)
PPS. Onion rings vs. french fries really doesn't cut it as an example, because loving onion rings is not a better moral choice than loving french fies. (Pizza vs. liver might work, though.) -
How about this question. There are a lot of Christian men who are trapped in the sin of pornography. Other Christian men are not trapped. Where does this decision come from? Both groups are Christians. Let's assume that the Holy Spirit convicts both sets of men that pornography is wrong. Why do some choose one way and others choose another way?
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Grrrrrrr.......
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I would maintain that the "He works then we work" is the same in salvation. Scripture makes it clear that both parties have to do their part for man to be saved.
I agree that God always completes his part - we have to choose whether to cooperate or not. This includes the salvific process.
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Very well put. I agree! I don't understand where these people come up with this calvinistic theology. It just doesn't fit Scripture, not the way I see it.
Rev 22:17
"17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
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I'm confused... :confused: I've read some of the posts on this thread, and I can't reconcile the "free will" theology with some of Jesus' statements in John 6. From what I understand, the free will argument goes like this: A preacher preaches the Gospel. The natural man either accepts or rejects the offer of the Gospel. Am I right? Okay...In John 6, we have Jesus preaching to people who've seen His miracles and heard His preaching. Jesus finally says, "But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not." Now...it seems as if there were ever a preacher who'd ever lived that could open the ears and eyes of the sinner, Jesus would be that preacher; don't you think? I do. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. Jesus went on to say, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Here we see that there are some given to the Son by the Father. Furthermore, those that are given come. No literate person could misunderstand that statement made by the Lord Jesus unless somebody helped them. I mean, it's just as clear as water. Obviously, there must be some other factor involved in the salvation of a soul than simply hearing the Gospel. If you'll read Romans 1, the verse says that the Gospel is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." The verse means exactly what it says, "to every one that believeth." The word "believeth" in Romans 1:16 is a present active participle. In other words, the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation every one is now (present) believing (active). There's nothing in that verse that even hints to the false theory of Gospel regeneration. Furthermore, look what Paul said to the Romans: "So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also." (Rom. 1:15) Well now wait a minute...The church at Rome are saints...right? Why would He be so eager to preach the Gospel to those who are already saved instead of going out and trying make children of God? That's because Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 1:18, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; BUT UNTO US WHICH ARE SAVED IT IS THE POWER OF GOD." So you see? The Gospel is the power of God to the saved, or to every one that "believeth." Another statement made by the Lord Jesus is found in John 6 where He clearly illustrates the inabaility of man to come to Christ of his own free will. He said that no man can come to Him except he be drawn. He went on to say, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. EVERY MAN therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Look at the order: the teaching of the Father came FIRST, and as a result, those who are taught of the Father come to Christ. Later in the chapter, Jesus said once again, "But there are some of you that believe not..." (v. 64). Then He said, "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (v. 65) Did you catch that? Something has to be given to the natural man by the Father before he can come to Jesus. Isn't that plain? Another one of those things nobody could misunderstand unless somebody helped. The Bible is equally clear that the Gospel must be mixed with faith in order to profit somebody (Heb. 4:2). Where does the faith come from to mix with it? Will worshipers say that you get faith by hearing the Gospel, but you can't profit from the Gospel unless you have that something called faith to mix with it. The born again child of God don't get faith by hearing the Gospel, but upon hearing the Gospel, has something, an object, in which to place his faith. Prior to hearing the Gospel, the child of God has faith, but he don't have nothing to believe in; he can't exercise it. Does that mean if you don't exercise what you have you don't have it? So yes, faith comes by hearing. Here we go back to what Jesus taught that no man can come to Him unless the Father gives it. Well, that is it that the man needs in order to come to Christ? Well...faith for one. He must have a desire...God does that according to John 6:44 (Gr., helkuo, "to lead or impel by inward desire"). Certainly none of us would be hear unless the Father had lead us to Christ. The "soul-saver" man didn't do it. Jeremiah said, "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." (10:23) None of us by nature had it in us to walk in a way that pleased God. I don't care if you're an Arminian, Calvinist, or whatever. And it's this point that we all need to agree on - that none of us by nature would have followed Christ unless the Father, out of pure love, had not drawn us to His precious Son. And that, whether you accept it or not, is the plain teaching of Scripture.
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Robert J. Hutton,
The person who receives Christ doesn't think himself or herself better than one of those souls that refuses the Gospel. The person who accepts Christ through forgiveness has bowed to the message and the Messenger of the Gospel, namely Jesus.
Every Christian knows the absolute truth that salvation is by grace. [Ephesians 2:8] Our salvation is all of God and we can take no credit before faith or after our life changing experienc with our Lord. What Calvinists refuse to see with their spiritual eyes is that some sinners have faith in Jesus, believe the Gospel, and ' . . . mix faith' [Hebrews 4:2] when hearing the truth of the holy Gospel. Those who do not humble themselves before the Triune Godhead refuse to add the ingredient of faith. Let me quickly point out that our faith is not a 'work' or 'good work' because God approves of a sinners reliance on Him for salvation and everlasting life. 'For God so love the world that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.'
Some Christians are not willing to accept the old, Reformed, diatribe. -
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I would recommend that you start with a book entitled Grace Unknown by R.C. Sproul.
Also, check out this link: www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org -
R.C. Sproul has admitted to writers that I have read that he does not always have answers as to this matter of 'Unconditional Election.' (If the glove doesn't fit--you can't aquit.)
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One must hear the truth, believe on Him before God enters into the life.
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Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org -
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org[/QB][/QUOTE] -
Why doesn't an Arminian show me decisional faith in John 6??? Please...
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Primitive Baptist,
John 6:35-37: 'Cometh' is a verb--an action word; 'believeth' is a verb--an action word. Human beings must make a decision to come and to believe in Jesus message and truth. Men and women have to take 'action' as described in our 'free will' position and truth.
I would hope you don't think that God is the one described as coming and believing.
In John 6:37 says, 'All that the Father giveth Me shal come to Me. . . ' The Father God gives to the Son only those who have received His Son. [John 1:12].
Jesus said Himself, ' . . . and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.' Is it the English or the Greek that confuses you about what our Lord has said?
The Greek scholar, A.T. Robertson tells us about the verse noted above that it is a ' . . . strong double negative as in verse 35 with second aorist active subjunctive of {ballo}. (By this he means that God absolutely will not cast out any one who comes to Him, contrary to what you have been taught by your instructors in the faith). My ( ) bracketed inclusion. Dr. Robertson also says this. 'Definite promise of Jesus to welcome the one who comes.' -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Ray Berrian said:
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