Well Larry -
Larry posted
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You would need to demonstrate this from Scripture. Christ says that the universal calls goes out but "cannot" be heard or understand (cf. John 8 for starters).
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Ok so we got an admission of universal call
Pray tell what is the universal call - it is the action of the Spirit based upon the revelation of God's Word - through true testimony concerning God - that is the gospel and creation itself!
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
I say these passages are a rough illustration of the call and how one acquires salvation
Sadly you didnt post a verse with that chapter 8 - but lets look at verse 43 and verse 30-31
Let me simplify or get back on track - the universal call IS the Word of God - it grants the ability to hear - but would someone run into the light who lived their life in darkness not knowing what the light is? No
Some people are thick headed Calvinists/Pharisees and as such require a little more effort on the part of God to be woo'd into the light!
The call is sufficient to bring one to faith and repentance - but because the choice/belief is left up to man by God's decree - man screws it up more often then not.
Hey I was a naughty lil Calvinist once - when I was young - I outgrew my missionary, Arminianistic desires shortly tho as my birth church indoctrinated me in Calvinistic fashion - it took just over a decade before I left that silliness behind.
Details - Details
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Sularis, Jun 6, 2005.
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The "Call" IS clearly HEARD according to John 16 because the Spirit "CONVICTS" the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment. They can not be CONVICTED of what they can not hear!!
But they may still REJECT the Holy Spirit's conviction (living in an internally conflicted state in that case).
God says HE DRAWS ALL -- that DRAWING (even by Calvinist standards) ENABLES the choice that TD disables!! So AGAIN - it is working!!
The fact that FREE WILL enables those who are DRAWN and who are CONVICTED to TURN and REJECT LIGHT does NOT change the DRAWING or the CONVICTING -- indeed "I STAND at the door and KNOCK IF ANY MAN hears my voice AND opens the door THEN I WILL COME IN and fellowship with him".
How facinating to find that Calvinism has not a leg to stand on!!
In Christ,
Bob -
In John 8, Christ tells the Pharisees that they "cannot hear." That is not about physical ability, but about spiritual ability. They could not hear/understand his word because they had the wrong father. Until their father changed, they would not be able to hear. That doesn't contradict anything in Roman 10:17, Gal 3:2 or anything else. It simply indicates taht spiritual understanding does not belong to everyone.
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All sinful humanity has one father that is the devil - until we are adopted by God.
the Universal Call which you admitted Larry exists - IS SUFFICIENT unto salvation for all but EFFECTIVE for only a few - because of choice not because of lack of understanding because there are not two species of human - God's and Satan's. We are all the same.
But we're making progress here - we've gotten up to the universal call "roughly" agreed upon - Now perhaps Larry if you could explain how you percieve the call is applied to bring one salvation or to salvation - I'd appreciate it
Any Calvinist - or calvinist leaning person may answer - if you are not calvinist or calvinist leaning shhhh - I want a calvinist or leaning towards calvinist person to answer
That means BobRyan - shhhh - wait until they answer -
We take what we can get.
No lets SEE how Romans 10 fits so perfectly into the John 8 model!! It says "Faith comes by hearing AND hearing by the Word of God" then it argues the Calvinist point "SURELY they have never HEARD have they"???
In Christ,
Bob -
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I think we can cut to the chase here pretty quick by pointing out that the problem is John 8 was not a physical hearing problem, but one of spiritual understanding. And Jesus said they were "unable" to understanding because of who their father was. Until their Father is God (i.e., born again or regenerated), they will not be able to understand.
Romans 10 is perfectly consistent. Withour hearing the message, they will not be saved. But all who hear are not saved, and do not understand the spiritual truths, as Scripture clearly points out.
The universal call is made the effectual call by the work of hte Holy Spirit in the life. We do not know precisely how that works (John 3), as the old song says "I know not how the Spirit moves convincing men of sin." I don't know how it works, but 1 Cor 1 makes clear that the difference between saved and unsaved is "the call." There, the unsaved Jews and Gentiles and contrasted with "the called." Clearly, the unsaved were not part of "the called." -
Btw Bob since Larry answered yer allowed to post again.
Hrm - Im not saying it is physical Larry - Im saying God's Word in all circumstances is efficacious - ie it accomplishes its purpose each and every time out - every single time the Word is spoken/read/experienced to/for/by ANYONE it does not return "void"
and very good passage Larry - but note in the John 8 passage it stated that they believed - now whether or not this was unto salvation - unknown - but unlikely as they go on to try and stone him - Its the response to the call not the call itself - There arent two calls operating a foolish one and a power of God one - all calls are one call -
and they are all the power of God each time accomplishing its purpose within the hearts of man to convict and enable.
I believe you are suggesting that God takes this worthless universal call - and transmutes it into a something of an effectual nature.
May I suggest that God makes an effectual universal call - and mans pigheadedness turns it into foolishness. -
There is a hardening affect in the message as well as a saving affect.
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At Pentecost many priests and leaders accept Christ - the SAME people that considered Him foolish and rejected him prior to that.
Trying to "stretch 1 Cor 1" into saying something it does not - creates a host of problems in the text of scripture.
In Christ,
Bob -
God EFFECTIVELY makes Lucifer a FREE WILL , sinless PERFECT child of God EVEN though Lucifer later USES that gift for evil.
God EFFECTIVELY makes Adam a free Will, sinless, happy, PERFECT child of God EVEN Though Adam will later ABUSE those gifts and fall into rebellion.
Calvinism would charge God with "NOT EFFECTIVELY Making Lucifer a sinless being".
Such "man-made contrivances" should not be injected into God's actions AS IF they had substance or even bound God in some way. They do not.
In Christ,
Bob -
We are not injecting anything into God's plan, but rather taking what God said in his word. I think if you study effectual call from a Calvinistic viewpoint, you will see that your responses here really do not deal with it at all. -
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But IF GOD determines that "EFFECTIVE" is defined as ENABLING REAL choice among those who HAVE NO choice without the actual EFFECTIVE enabling -- then it is EFFECTIVE even when the person CHOOSES poorly.
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In the mean time - Arminians will simply observe that the drawing of God "effectively" enables the choice to come to God that depravity disables.
That was easy!
In Christ,
Bob -
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Paul points out in places like Romans 11 that those who reject the gospel as foolishness are LATER grafted in in many cases and are in other cases "moved" even by being made jealous to embrace the gospel.
At Pentecost many priests and leaders accept Christ - the SAME people that considered Him foolish and rejected him prior to that.
Trying to "stretch 1 Cor 1" into saying something it does not - creates a host of problems in the text of scripture.
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In Christ,
Bob -
Read it closely, and note the difference between Jew (for whom Christ is a stumblingblock), Greek (for whom a crucified Messiah is foolishness), and "the called" (for whom Christ is the wisdom and power of God). Go through and ask yourself how God describes those people: The jews and Greeks are both unsaved. The "called" are saved. There are no "called" in that passage for whom christ is not the power of God and wisdom of God. The "called" is coextensive with the saved. If you think about what the passage is saying for a bit and put aside your preconceived notions, I think you will see it pretty easily. -
If you think about what the passage is saying for a bit and put aside your preconceived notions, I think you will see it pretty easily.
That's the problem here isn't it?
Good luck on understanding Rom 8:30 if there isn't a difference between and effectual call and an outward call (non effectual)... -
In John 6 we find that no one can come to God unless they are drawn. What is the "purpose of the drawing" but to enable someone to come to God??
In John 12 we find that God DRAWS mankind - is it your argument that Calvinism claims that this drawing is NOT EFFECTIVE in drawing the sinner to God and enabling that choice to come to God that depravity disables???
OR do you claim it "is Effective" but not in doing the above - because it does even less than that?
In Christ,
Bob -
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In the mean time - Arminians will simply observe that the drawing of God "effectively" enables the choice to come to God that depravity disables.
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In Christ,
Bob
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