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Featured DGOETTP part two

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Feb 28, 2022.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    are you trying to support what the WCF says, that God "planned to order their sin to his own glory"? If so, none of the verses you provide says this?
     
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Gen 1:2

    in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, (Angels, maybe) 2 Cor 4:4
    because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; Eph 6:12

    2 cor 4:6 because it is God who said, Out of darkness light is to shine,

    Yes I understand context. However just when the wrestling begin? Even before there was flesh and blood?
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    This is what I am saying:

    I personally believe God made Adam of flesh, knowing he was going to give Adam a spiritual law (thou shall not eat of it) giving power to, the sin (transgression of that law) thus selling him under sin, to die thou dost die, for the very purpose of redeeming man from sin and death, was the means of destroying the devil, who had the power of the death, and his works through the manifestation, in the likeness of sinful flesh, of the Son of God.
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I believe God created Adam to and or unto sin.
     
  5. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Of course they are free wills. You can choose. You are not a robot to sin. You can choose not to sin. That verse shows a choice and the free will not to sin.


    A slave to righteousness does not mean you are a sinless perfect human. You are not a robot to righteousness. You still have to do what is right by choice. Being a "slave to anything" does not negate free will. Having no choice means one is reprobate and they no longer have free will to choose what is right.

    You think slaves have no choice. Of course slaves have a choice. One can choose between sin and righteousness. Please don't say a slave to righteousness, can only do righteousness. 1 John 1:6-10

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

    Being a slave to righteousness, does not remove sin, nor our obligation to confess our sins. Being a slave to righteousness is because of free will and our freedom to choose what is right.
     
  6. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Of course Adam had a permanent incorruptible physical body before he disobeyed. He was not a "spiritual ghost". Adam died and so did Eve, because she was part of Adam, a couple. They went from permanent incorruptible physical bodies to dead corruptible perishable physical bodies.

    Adam was not dead before he ate. He died the second he disobeyed God.

    What happened to Adam is the reverse of what happens at the Second Coming. We will no longer be "of Adam", but "of God".
     
  7. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Nope. That is coercion, and no free will. That is the view the OP is speaking against.
     
  8. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    And this ends our conversation.

    This just proved you have no desire to discuss. but just push your own personal fatalistic agenda.

    I have shown you evidence. Whether you agree or believe that evidence is not on me..

    Good day sir. I did not come into Baptist chat to argue with people who are unwilling to even discuss the word without personal attack.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    did God preordain the fall of Adam and Eve, for His Glory?
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This has nothing to do with a personal agenda. This has everything to do with God being Lord over every molecule. There is no rogue molecule of which God is unaware. God did not create and then walk away to let the world move on its own.
    Free will theory is fatalism since the Bible tells us that humans will always choose rebellion and death rather than God (Read Romans 1). Holding to the hope of God's mercy and grace is not fatalism, it is joy and peace in the Holy Spirit. It is resting in the Sovereign hands of the King.

    As to evidence, you have leaned on Adam, before the fall, as you theory that free will exists. All this shows is that humans have a will. It doesn't show freedom.
    Until you can acknowledge that we humans are slaves to either sin or righteousness (Romans 5 and Romans 6) you will be turning your back on scripture.
    Be honest, you want a God that gives you the control to cause God to do what you choose to tell him to do. That is the essence of free will philosophy.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Yes, God allowed the fall before Adam and Eve fell. God allowed the serpent to tempt them and stir up pride in self rule.

    Will you judge God for doing this and blame God?
    God also tells us that not only did Pharaoh harden his heart, but God also hardened Pharaoh's heart. Will you judge and blame God for this as well.

    I am sorry that God's Supremacy and Sovereignty over all molecules bothers you.
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Adam was made good. Christ said a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. Though he was made good, he was not made incorruptible, and when corruption set in, he could do no other than sin. There is no freedom of choice in this narrative. We are what we are, whole or corrupt. A fountain cannot bring forth both fresh and salt water.

    God knows this. Also knowing that a covenant with God cannot be maintained throught the power of corruptible flesh, he was brought to the Devil to be tempted, and though he was in the midst of Paradise, healthy, strong, and had a good wife, was found to be corruptible flesh, and sin entered the world.

    In contrast, the One who is prefigured in Adam, was led into the wilderness in a weakened and famished condition to be tempted of the Devil, and He prevailed, because He is the uncorruptible God.

    Genesis isn't about the origin of sin. Darkness and sin were there in the beginning. Genesis is about us, and how sin entered the world, and the giving of the Promise.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    LOL. Define temptation, and it will start to make sense to you.
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I apologize, I presumed some rationality on your part despite its absence in any of your posts.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The plan was the magnification of the Son. Sin and death do need to be conquered, yes, but their purpose was to prove the Son worthy of the title, King of Kings.
     
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is that not exactly what this verse says?

    which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, (? It is redeemed from sin and death, is it not?) to the praise of His glory.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    it does not say here that God ordained the fall of Adam and Eve for His Glory
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    God did leave creation to itself for one Lord's Day. And that is not a 24 hour period, either. Read Genesis 2. Free will may be a philosophy like Calvinism is just a philosophy. But free will itself is just the ability to choose without coercion. God did create the universe with laws so it can do just that. Those laws may be restrictive, but they allow choices to be made with that free will humanity has to make them, without outside coercion of any type. Of course no one has free will to become God, and make God dissappear from eternity. God does not force one to be a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. That is a free will choice allowed to humans without coercion. So talk about philosophy and imagine all the things about this point except for the bottom line. When you can prove no one has a choice, but is a programmed robot, then that is outside coercion making you do what your own mind is unable to do.

    If one chooses of their own free will to submit to being a slave to righteousness, they are not being coerced into that decision. Once a slave to righteousness, it is not coercion that keeps you a slave, it is still your free will to submit. But giving up rights and submitting, leads to you letting God control your will, and of course it is not free at that point. You cannot be disingenuous in your submission. But there is a huge difference in having a choice, and not ever having one, due to coercion. One is not a slave to sin before birth. One is a sinner, but learning to sin happens just like learning to do what is right. Because until there are laws to willingly or willfully break, one does not sin, even though one is born a sinner. It is the breaking of laws that is the sin.
     
  19. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    You can speculate all day and still make sense. That is still not proof Adam was tempted in any way.

    It clearly makes sense Adam was not tempted, nor coerced. Adam exercised free will without outside coercion.
     
  20. timtofly

    timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Yet you are irrational in stating there is no free will.

    Point to any entity forcing you to declare there is no free will. Let us see who is the rational one here.
     
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