1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Did Jesus Actually Go To hell, as per The Creeds?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Apr 29, 2011.

  1. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,983
    Likes Received:
    1
    Scripture reveals to us that hell is a place of outer darkness. I do not believe that Lazarus and Abraham saw the rich man who was in a place of outer darkness.

    As to the water, like I said, the rich man said 'send Lazarus, that he may dip his finger in water.' He did not say have Lazarus bring water from where he is. He did not even say he saw water. All that we are assured of him seeing is Lazarus and Abraham. He told the rich man 'Send Lazarus, that he may dip his finger in water..." not "Let Lazarus dip his finger in water and then send him to me."

    Also, the Bible does not say the rich man was tormented by thirst. It says he was tormented 'in this flame."
     
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zenas View Post
    The Apostles Creed is our oldest Christian creed outside of the Bible. Its author is unknown, if indeed it had a single author, and the etiology of this controversial line cannot be traced precisely.

    “He descended into Hell” has not been dropped from modern versions of the Creed. However, it has been changed in some versions to say, “He descended to the dead.” They mean the same thing, i.e., that Jesus did not go to a place of torment but rather to the abode of the righteous dead. These people were stuck in a kind of purgatory (not going to Hell but unable to enter Heaven without Jesus). So, in a manner of speaking Jesus descended to the dead to rescue them from prison and lead them to Heaven. We know for certain that He did enter the underworld and He did make a proclamation to the departed spirits. If you don’t believe this, you can mark 1 Peter 3:19 out of your Bible.

     
    #42 percho, May 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2011
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh dear! Two things. Firstly, the lord Jesus says "Verily I say to thee' many times. Can you find one other place where He adds "today"?

    Secondly, what does it mean? What is the point of it? "Verily, I say to thee yesterday" doesn't make sense; nor does "Verily I say to thee tomorrow." The only point of it is if you believe in 'soul sleep.'

    No, the thief's spirit and our Lord's went straightaway to be with the Father, in answer to His prayer (Luke 23:46). Christ had already experienced hell for every believer. His body, of course remained in the tomb.

    Any good commentary will explain 1Peter 3:19-20 to you.

    Steve
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, (1) that his soul was not left in hell, (2) neither his flesh did see corruption.

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Christ died for our sins


    This says that Christ died, not the body of Christ died for our sins. Acts 2 says The soul of Christ was resurrected from hell and his body also was resurrected before it saw any corruption and it was raised in a way that it could never be subject to corruption again.

    And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    The whole of Christ died and the whole of Christ was raised,
     
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    Jesus did not go to heaven when he died on the cross as shown by his statement to Mary Magdalene just after he rose from the dead.

    Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO MY FATHER, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
     
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    That is correct. His body did not ascend, did it?
     
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    What do you mean his body? His soul also did not ascend to the Father until after he arose from the dead.

    When Jesus said he would be three days and three night in the heart of the earth, he was speaking of his soul, not his body.

    How do I know this? Because Jesus was buried ABOVE ground.

    Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3 AND THEY ENTERED IN, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

    Christ's tomb was ABOVE ground, Mary and others walked into it.
     
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    I'm sorry but I have seen the Scriptures to say pretty much the exact opposite of what you are seeing here. His body entered the grave, His soul did not. His soul was in heaven that very moment when he "gave up his spirit". His body lay in the grave for three days but His soul did not.

    When He spoke to Mary, He was now in a glorified body but it had not been to heaven yet. Later, He was able to be touched by His disciples because He had ascended to heaven bodily as well as spiritually.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    Believe what you wish, but you must disregard the scriptures.

    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his SOUL was not LEFT IN HELL, neither did his flesh see corruption.

    Peter said this twice in Acts 2, quoting David who also said this in the Psalms.
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    What is the Greek word "hell" and what is the meaning?
     
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    When Peter used it in Acts 2:31 it was "hades". According to Strong's this was associated with Orcus and meant the abode of the dead in the deepest regions of the earth.

    The word for soul is "psyche" which means the life force and being of the person and is distinguished from the body.

    These definitions support my view and refute yours, look and see for yourself.
     
    #51 Winman, May 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2011
  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not think the meaning is heaven.
     
  13. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    Yes, Jesus' soul was not left in hell like you are purporting, was it? "Hades" was the place of all dead - the grave. It was not the hell of burning eternity. If that is where Jesus went, then His sacrifice on the cross was not enough to satisfy God's wrath and it was not truly "finished" meaning that Jesus lied.

    Yes, exactly. Jesus' soul did not go to the grave but instead went straight to the Father. "Into your hands I commend my spirit". Did God then toss it away?

    As I've shown, they actually do not.

    Nope, it's not heaven. Jesus' spirit was not left in the grave but instead went straight to the Father.
     
  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    I didn't say Jesus went to that part of hell where men are tormented in flames, Jesus went down into paradise or Abraham's bosom described in Luke 16.

    You don't understand, no man could go to heaven until Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection and offered his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. Only when men's sins were atoned for could men go directly to heaven. Until then they had to wait in paradise.

    Read the story of the prophet Samuel in 1 Sam 28. Samuel was dead and buried, king Saul hired a witch with a familiar spirit to bring Samuel up. And she did bring Samuel up. Samuel was saved, he was a great prophet, but his soul was down in paradise in the heart of the earth. This is where all saints had to wait until Jesus offered his blood on the mercy seat in heaven.
     
  15. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,914
    Likes Received:
    706
    So there's someplace other than heaven or hell? I don't see that as a Scriptural concept. Looking at the Samuel passage, does it sound familiar? "I want to speak to dear Aunt Trudie". Who do you think Aunt Trudie really is when they speak to her? I don't think that was truly Samuel.

    I've heard the argument of there being a "waiting room" but I don't see that being correct in light of all of Scripture. The Old Testament saints were saved just as the New Testament saints were - through the blood of Jesus Christ, their Messiah.
     
  16. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paradise Three times in the KJV Once relative to when thou comest into thy kingdom. Do you think that kingdom will come up from somewhere.
    Second, Paul was caught up into paradise. I believe that is opposite of the lowest parts of the earth or the heart of the earth or down to Sheol/Hades.
    Third, The tree of life is there. Do you think the tree of life is down in Hades?

    even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Would it be fair to say these are in the bosom of Christ? Would you say that being in Christ whether dead or alive are also in the bosom of Abraham based upon this verse? And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. The promises were only made to these two
    to be in one would be to be in the other.

    Annsni
    all in whose nostrils [is] breath of a living spirit -- of all that [is] in the dry land -- have died. That is life from the living God. When Jesus placed that breath of a living spirit into the hands of the Father, Jesus the once living soul was dead and his soul at that moment was in the realm of the dead Hades for three days and three nights time.

    His soul was not left in Hades. His soul not his spirit.
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is anyone suggesting that it was?

    Steve
     
  18. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,902
    Likes Received:
    5
    I have already spoke to this issue on a previous thread but wanted to address this though:

    Interesting.. the Bible states it 'WAS' Samuel but you say the bible is wrong?
    Scripture never gives us indication it was someone other than Samuel himself.
     
    #58 Allan, May 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2011
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Chapter and verse:

    RCS NTAGQ 2:12

    "is it possible? I don't think so. I don't think we can call forth the spirits of the dead. I believe all mediums resort to trickery to perform these feats."

    RCS SBS

    "witch of Endor were in all probability simply practicing clever tricks"
     
    #59 Jerome, May 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2011
  20. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,902
    Likes Received:
    5
    Again, and yet, SCRIPTURE declares it was Samuel and not a familiar spirit because scripture itself declares it was Samuel. If it was another spirit scripture would not have called him Samuel nor would it have declared to Saul proclamation of the Lord against him. Note especially 1 Sam 28:15 "And Samuel said to Saul...", and over and over this spirit is identified with/as Samuel the Prophet.

    It is of note as well that it was not the witches art that brought forth Samuel, in fact, according to the layout of the passages - she asked who he wanted to speak, he told her Samuel, and Samuel appeared. Not through the working of her arts but immediately, and it was 'this situation' that surprised her so and she screamed (presumably, yet there is no other legitimate reason I can fathom for her to scream since the spirits she dealt with were 'familiars' or know already to her ).
     
Loading...