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Featured Did Jesus experience a separation from God on the cross?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Dec 9, 2015.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, brother, I offered something you have yet to provide. Scripture. But anyway - My apologies, I thought that I had posted some commentaries as per your request. Here you go:

    In denouncing the possibility that the Father and Son were separated on the cross, Belousek concludes “we thus continue to doubt whether the penal substitution view can both retain its substance and be brought into coherence with Trinitarian theology.” Darrin Belousek, “Atonement, Justice, and Peace”

    Adam Clarke denied that Jesus experienced a separation from the Father and stated “Take deity away from any redeeming act of Christ, and redemption is ruined.”

    Eusebius interprets “My God My God, why have you forsaken me?” as referring to power (e.g., “My Strength”) speaking of the complete helplessness of Jesus. God “forsook” him as a blood ransom for all humanity. Not separation. (Demonstratio Evangelica)

    Lactanitus, in Divine Institutes, states “nor can the Son be separated from the Father.”

    Athansaius, in his development of Trinitarian doctrine denies such a separation is possible as all Three Persons are eternally co-equal.

    For something more modern and easier to read you have the CARM article (I don’t know much about that organization, but at least it shows my view is far from unique). https://carm.org/jesus-cross-father

    I will say this, brother, your insistence that I offer commentators for my position to be a “real” theory is a bit odd as I have offered many passages in support of my words. You have offered some commentators, but ironically, no scripture.
     
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    If death is separation from God and if Jesus Christ died for our sins then the Son was separated from the Father in death, until grace intervened. The grace of life.

    You will be saved because he was resurrected from the dead.
     
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  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The O.P. is the sort of argument that takes a horse chestnut and passes it off as a chestnut horse. On the cross Christ was the substitute for His people. He was abandoned by the Father on the cross that we might not be abandoned in hell.

    I love this old Puritan prayer:

    Christ was all anguish that I might be all joy,
    cast off that I might be brought in,
    trodden down as an enemy that I might be welcomed as a friend,
    surrendered to hell's worst that I might attain heaven's best,
    stripped that I might be clothed,
    wounded that I might be healed,
    athirst that I might drink,
    tormented that I might be comforted,
    made a shame that I might inherit glory,
    entered darkness that I might have eternal light.
    My saviour wept that all tears might be wiped from my eyes,
    groaned that I might have eternal song,
    endured all pain that I might have unfailing health,
    bore a thorned crown that I might have a glory diadem,
    bowed His head that I might uplift mine,
    experienced reproach that I might receive welcome,
    closed his eyes in death that I might gaze upon unclouded brightness,
    expired that I might live forever.
    O Father, who spared not Thine only Son that thou mightiest spare me,
    all this transfer Thy love designed and accomplished;
    Help me to adore Thee by lips and life........

    From The Valley of Vision (ed. Arthur Bennett. Banner of Truth)
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Or perhaps the Father laid our iniquities on him and offered him as a sin offering so that through Christ God was reconciling man to himself. What if the Father and Son were never separated on the cross? What if God, as a whole, was in Jesus at that time, and this was God reconciling to himself all things by the blood of his cross? What if Psalm 22 as a whole applied to Jesus on the cross, and the cry “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me” was in reality a claim of that prophesy Jesus was fulfilling, that God would deliver him? Here’s one, what if Psalm 31, “In your hand I commit my spirit; you have redeemed me, O Lord, faithful God”, applies to Jesus? I know this is a stark difference from your proposal, but what if?

    Obviously one of these proposals are wrong. If you would like, we could compare them with scripture, take out anything that is explanation/commentary and see where each stands. You game?
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I like that prayer. Also, I always liked the song "In the Garden." I don't know why. It really is not a song strong on scripture and I certainly wouldn't use it to argue theology. I have offered passages that specifically say God will not abandon his Holy One. Did you find one that said he did?
     
    #45 JonC, Dec 10, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  6. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Excellent. I hope I may quote your assessment in the future?
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is a good saying. It reminds me of something GK Chesterton would say.

    I have another: "Theology without scripture is human philosophy." Did you ever find a passage we can look at in support of your comments?
     
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps those who resort to personal attacks have nothing left to bring to support their view?
     
  9. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Agreed! The author of this thread should have expressed his erroneous views without resorting to slanderous, arrogant and condescending remarks of others.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Well, at least no Scripture to support their view. It is amazing, brother, if you look at the comments on this thread. Over and over we have asked for scripture. We have gotten snide remarks, a list of books, but not one single passage in support of their theology.

    This is why I was so hesitant to come back here. Some can't defend their view so they try to overshadow any scripture that may damage their theology with a smoke screen of personal attacks instead of turning to the Word of God. It is a shame and it is shameful.

    We can, of course, disagree. But let our disagreement be centered on God and His Word, not our own thoughts and ideas, but Scripture. Explain your view, substantiate your view, and discuss as a genuine believers any differences in interpretation. But don't leave scripture behind. The problem is, and here has always been, that some do not believe they are accountable for what they say on these types of forums.
     
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  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I am not certain that I am reading the same thread!!!!

    If anything the author of the OP has defended his view, and provided substantial evidence of support.

    Others have failed to provide Scripture support and had to rely upon those that would only agree with their view.

    The author of the OP has been far more gracious that I could ever have expressed in this and other threads.

    For example:

    Has anyone provided a single Scripture that proves God's rage was poured out upon Christ, and that the demand of God's satisfaction obliged the complete separation, abandonment, desertion, shunning of the Son?

    That in such a view, the Trinity is not destroyed, and becomes a duet, no matter how brief such may be (for there was one who posts that separation lasted three days).

    When the scene is pictured in the book of the Revelation, is there ANY hint of such separation and rage upon the one who is able to take the Scrolls?
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I certainly have, three in fact.
    Psalm 22:1, Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34. They seem perfectly clear to me. I can't imagine why anyone would want to contradict them.
    The abandonment was obviously not permanent (Phil. 2:9 etc.), which of course gives us great hope that when the heavens are as brass to us and we have no feeling whatsoever of the presence of God, we should not despair because He sent His Son that way.
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    It has always struck me as being an extended contemplation on Isaiah 53:4-5.
     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    That's because ultimately, in the final analysis, "I and the Father are one" Jn 10:30.

    But that doesn't change the fact:

    7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5

    God HEARD His supplications and saved Him from death by raising Him from the dead.

    The Jews killed Him but God raised Him from the dead.
     
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  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Nothing? Nothing at all?
    'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are you so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning? O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; and in the night season, and am not silent.'
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sorry, I've been out and didn't have time to reply.
    Thank you, brother, for that explanation. Your foundation is “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Your interpretation of this verse is Jesus crying out that the Father had separated himself from him on the cross. This seems to be eisegesis to me.

    Here then is where I think we have departed on the topic of Jesus being separated from God. It is in the definition of “forsake.” The word can, I grant, mean to leave in a sense (to physically withdraw one’s presence and forsake someone to a situation). But separation is not really a part of that definition. To forsake someone can also mean to leave in a situation (not withdrawing one’s presence), and it is used this way often in scripture as well. So I can grant these two definitions, and we can see which applies.

    This is why I believe “forsake” here means to allow suffering, or abandoning to suffering, rather than actually leaving or deserting.

    First, on the cross Jesus is quoting Scripture. It was custom to quote a line but indicate a broader contest (we see this quite a bit in the Pauline epistles). Jesus is quoting the scripture that he is fulfilling (Psalm 22). Psalm 22 begins “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” but as the psalm progresses it becomes very apparent that God had not actually forsaken or abandoned him. It is, in the psalm, a plea to God and indeed a plea based on the fact that God will never abandon his righteous one. The Psalm itself denies such a separation.

    Second, Matthew 27:46-49 does not indicate that the bystanders understood Jesus’ words in the context of being abandoned. Instead, their reaction appears to indicate that they understood his comments within the context of a plea for deliverance, and they awaited to see if that deliverance would come. It, of course, did as the Father justified the Son, but not in the context that the audience expected.

    Third, Psalm 91:12 (as quoted in Lk. 4:9 and Mt. 4:6) also affirms the context that the audience seems to have attributed to Christ’s words on the cross. Jesus is not speaking of a separation, but is calling out to God as his Righteous One for deliverance, and he was delivered. God did not abandon his Holy One (Ps. 16:10). This is speaking of the flesh, of God redeeming Christ bodily (for that day he was in Paradise).

    Fourth, in contrast to the notion that Jesus was suffering our punishment in the form of being separated from God (a “spiritual death”), Romans 8:3 tells us that the Father sent his own Son in the “likeness of sinful flesh and for sin he condemned sin in the flesh.” There is no need of this separation because our spiritual punishment is not a payment needing to be made before God can forgive. The issue is sinful flesh.

    Fifth, God is immutable (Malachi 3:6; Num. 23:19; Ps. 102:25-27; Ps. 33:11; Isaiah 46:10; etc.). If you read those passages this refers to God’s spirit, his ontological nature. When we speak of God, he is always the same. Not the same in action, but the same in nature. John 10:30 tells us that he and the Father are One. John 1 tells us that Jesus was with God and he was God. The doctrine of immutability means that the Father and the Son and the Spirit will always be One. No separation.

    Sixth, 2 Cor. 5:19 tells us that in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself. We cannot separate the Father from this equation. If that separation occurred, then there is a sense whereby God was reconciling the world to himself, but the mode is damaged if Jesus is somehow separated from the Father (and Spirit) at the cross.



    Is there any verse of scripture that defends the interpretation of "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" to mean that God separated from Jesus on the cross, or are we just to take it on "my theory depends on it" to interpret the passage? Can we not at least try to let scripture interpret scripture?
     
    #56 JonC, Dec 11, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Why do contend that there was any abandonment at all permanent or temporary?

    These verses you give were addressed. Each state essentially the same words. Posting three of the same words does not support lend, for two are quoting the other.

    No one has yet to show either logically how the Trinity can be separated into a duet, or how the hypostatic union that was unique in Christ was able to be disassembled and then reassembled. This is (imo) a major key that no "abandonment, separation, or disunion" occurred. God cannot separate from Himself.

    Perhaps the one account above all others that should give some indication of that a broken relationship occurred between the Father and the Son would be the same that lays out more clearly than any other the Love of the Father and the purpose of the Son (John 3). However, John is totally silent. Yet, he is the ONLY gospel writer that is also an actual eye witness, standing with the Lord's mother at the foot of the Cross, and one of the three in whom the Lord spoke to directly while He waited for the exact time to lay down his life. If any account of such significance had occurred (that of the Father abandoning the Son) certainly John would have given some statement in that account.

    However, it isn't in that account that John writes of what occurred, but at a much later time in his life. While writing the Revelation.

    Revelation 5 reveals the scene from the perspective of heaven in which the Lamb comes forward to take the scroll. At that time shown from the perspective of heaven, there is not a hint of separation or that the lamb had been even shunned. Just the opposite occurs.

    Further, there is also no evidence I can find in the OT tabernacle sacrifices, the prophecies, or any other account that would support the thinking that God "abandoned" in the way of deserted, separated, disavowed, disowned, or divorced the Son.

    But there are those who will hold tightly to traditions of men rather than Scriptures.

    And, therefore, it is not uncommon for a tradition to be built and passed on as factual, yet, when examined for Scripture support is just altogether lacking any evidence.

    Without such traditions as wrath and abandon, the actual accomplishment of the Cross becomes far more definite and sharp in focus.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    We are blessed in having the word translated 'forsaken' in both Hebrew and Greek for us to study.

    The Hebrew word in Psalm 22:1 is Azab. According to Young's Analytical Concordance, it appears in the O.T. exactly 200 times. Of those, it is translated in the KJV 'Forsake' 123 times, 'leave' 67 times, 'leave destitute' once, and 'refuse' once (also 'leave off' 4 times). So the overwhelming usage of the word is to forsake or to leave.

    The Greek word in Matt 27 and Mark 15 is enkataleipo. The same word is used in 2 Cor. 4:9; 2 Tim. 4:10 & 16; Heb. 10:25; 13:5. Why not check these out to see if they mean anything else except 'forsake'? The word is also translated 'leave' on two occasions: Acts 2:27 and Rom. 9:19.

    N.B. The word Sabachthani is Aramaic, not Hebrew.

    To refuse to believe the plain meaning of the words because they do not fit one's own theological constructs is not good theology (to put it mildly).

    The people around the cross mistook His cry of 'Eloi' for 'Elia,' the Greek vocative form of Elijah- they thought that He was expecting that Elijah would come and rescue Him- in other words, they completely misunderstood- so to read anything theological into their actions would be unwise.
     
  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is there anything in the OT that would show; Because of our sins being placed upon the Passover Lamb, the Son of God, that as we are being unleavened by him, the Son relative to the Father would be unclean? Untouchable of the Father for a given period. After a given period of time say, three days, then, washing of regeneration? Sprinkled with living water.

    Not abandoned,, but separated in being unclean through death because of our sins?

    BTW I like you believe the Psalms actually are about the Son therefore Ps 139 also, that is even being in Sheol/Hades he cannot escape the presence of the Spirit of God. However even in that Psalm the Son, is from the lowest parts of the earth perfected and so also is his church in Him.

    This has been a good discussion.
     
  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I agree and besides:
    λαμβάνω
    The KJV translates Strongs G2983 in the following manner:receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x),catch (3x), not tr (1x), misc (17x).

    I believe he, "received," resurrected life and glory from God, his Father. 1 Peter 1:21 Gal 1:1
     
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