1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Did those seeking to kill Jesus, doing the desires of the Devil, put Jesus to death by godless men?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Nov 1, 2023.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,931
    Likes Received:
    3,628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is a continuation of a thread to discuss whether the Jews who were seeking to kill Jesus, doing the desires of their father the Devil, put Jesus to death.

    @Van stated a position that these men did not put Jesus to death, but rather put Jesus to what would have killed regular men and then Jesus killed Himself.

    @Martin Marprelate stated the position that Satan wanted Jesus to live and rule on earth rather than go to the Cross, then Satan sought Jesus death but only before Jesus' appointed time to die, and when that time came worked to save Jesus from the cross.

    @Scripture More Accurately stated the position that those men listening to the Devil and doing his desires were not actually influenced by the Devil.

    @canadyjd got hung up on whether those men who listened to the Devil actually heard an audible voice.


    Acts 2:22–24 Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.


    John 8:37–44 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father. They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
    You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,931
    Likes Received:
    3,628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My position is that Jesus lay down His own life, nobody robbed Him of His life. He has the authority over His own life, and He lay down His life to be out to death by men doing the desires of their father the Devil.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) Jesus did not commit suicide. Christian martyrs laid down their lives and it dishonors every Christian's commitment to Christ to disparage it is suicide.

    2) Jesus did lay down His life, and no one, repeat no one, not Satan, not wicked people, took His life.

    3) It is not in dispute that wicked people under Satan's influence, took actions that would have killed an ordinary human. But to say Jesus did not lay down his physical life when He alone "gave up His Spirit" is unbiblical nonsense.
     
    #3 Van, Nov 1, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2023
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,931
    Likes Received:
    3,628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Christian martyrs were also killed via persecution. It was not suicide at all. And neither was Christ death.

    This is evident in that those men who killed Jesus were actually sinning against God. That is why Jesus prayed for their forgiveness. That is why Peter told them that they could be forgiven.

    But what you are claiming, even though you do not like the word, is that Jesus caused His own death. Suicide is causing ones own death.

    At the end of the day the actual issue is Scripture. What does the Bible say? Here you fail.

    Jesus lay down His own life, nobody robbed Him of His life. He has the authority over His own life, and He lay down His life to be out to death by men doing the desires of their father the Devil.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,771
    Likes Received:
    2,921
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It certainly was not the spirit of God that was working within the 'sons of disobedience' that murdered Christ.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,603
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Then, we just get the explain what,
    "by the Determinant Counsel and Foreknowledge of God", means....(?), in Acts 2:23b.

    Go for it!
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,931
    Likes Received:
    3,628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yep. Those men delivered over Jesus by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, and nailed Him to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    The problem comes in when people believe one passage contradicts or negates another.

    Scripture itself is clear - men, doing the will of their father the Devil, put Jesus to death AND this was according to the predetermined plan of God.

    But some cannot accept that because either their theory has no use for it or it contradicts their theory (at least in their mind).

    The truth, however, is that all of God's Word is true regardless of what men accept.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,771
    Likes Received:
    2,921
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Scripture makes no bones about who killed Christ:

    1 Thess 2
    14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
    15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

    Acts 2:
    …. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazarethye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

    Acts 3:
    …Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

    Acts 4:
    …Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

    Acts 5:
    … they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

    Acts 6 & 7:
    …there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

    Acts 10:
    …we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

    Acts 13:
    …Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

    Mt 27:
    25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

    AND...The Scripture makes no bones about these being 'the seed of the serpent':

    2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
    13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
    14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
    33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

    3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
    13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true.
    22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

    70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6
     
    #8 kyredneck, Nov 1, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,771
    Likes Received:
    2,921
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's really that simple. God 'ordains' simply by allowing it to happen. I think their precious 1689 Confession states it that way.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,931
    Likes Received:
    3,628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The issue here is some cannot understand the preordained plan of God, or God's overall will, being accomplished without God doing evil. Apply this to any evil, not just the crucifixion of Christ. Adam sinned, therefore God made Adam sin. It is an unattainable philosophy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,603
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Very good.

    Chapter 3 – God’s Decree


    1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.1

    He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably.

    Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.2

    This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.3

    In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.4

    1Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18. 2James 1:13; 1 John 1:5. 3Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11. 4Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3–5.
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,771
    Likes Received:
    2,921
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Joseph is possibly the largest type (by number of similarities) of Christ to be found in the scriptures with the possible exception of David.

    Who sold Joseph into bondage in Egypt? Was it his jealous brothers, or was it God?

    20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen 50

    The sins of the fathers were visited upon the Hebrews unto the third and the fourth generation for the evil that their fathers did to Joseph. But many lives were saved from the famine because God allowed/ordained it to happen. The brothers meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

    It's really very simple.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,771
    Likes Received:
    2,921
    Faith:
    Baptist
    K. Thanks! That's what I thought.
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,603
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    reference: to the first stop at Gill, today.

    Acts 2:23

    "Him being delivered"

    "Delivered" "By himself, according to his own will, for he gave, or delivered himself for his people;

    "and "delivered" by his Father, who spared him not, but delivered him up for us all;

    "and "delivered" by Judas, one of his disciples, who, for a sum of money, delivered him into the hands of the Jews;

    "and by them, he was "delivered" up to Pilate, the Roman governor;

    "and by him
    "back again to the Jews,

    "and to the soldiers, "delivered" to crucify him: and all this


    "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God;"

    "God not only foreknew that it would be, but determined that it should be, who does all things after the counsel of his own will;

    "and this for the salvation of his people, and for the glorifying of his divine perfections:

    "though this fixed resolution, settled purpose, and wise determination of God,

    "did not in the least excuse the sin of Judas in betraying him,

    "or of Pilate in condemning him,

    "or of the Jews in crucifying him;

    "nor did it at all infringe the liberty of their wills in acting,
    who did what they did, not by force, but voluntarily:


    "ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain;"

    "they took him in the garden, and bound him,

    "and had him first before the high priest,

    "then before Pilate, the Roman governor, and cried out with one voice, in a most vehement manner, for the crucifying of him, which, at their importunity, was granted, though no fault was found in him;

    "and therefore are justly charged with slaying, or murdering him."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,931
    Likes Received:
    3,628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yep. Scripture tells us that the Jewish leaders influenced by Satan nailed Jesus to a cross and murdered Him. But it was the Roman soldiers who actually placed the nails and did the work.
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,499
    Likes Received:
    1,579
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Bang Zoom! :Laugh
     
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    11,094
    Likes Received:
    2,446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


    Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


    I agree Gods decree!... If not we would still be in our sins and God does things his way, not ours... Brother Glen:)

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,931
    Likes Received:
    3,628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree. BUT does God's predetermined plan mean that those who are used as a part of that plan have no guilt?

    What I mean is that Scripture clearly tells us that Christ's death was a part of God's plan. Scripture not only describes Christ as suffering and unjust judgment but also that this will somehow result in the justification of many.

    At the same time Scripture states that what those men did was "of the Devil" (Satan desire, Satan influence) and a sin (one of which the men could be forgiven).

    I am not suggesting that God authors evil. But, just as with Job, Satan somehow falls under God's jurisdiction and is used as a part of God's plan. If Satan could not torment Job without God allowing it then I think it reasonable that he could not kill Jesus without Jesus laying down His own life for that purpose.

    But does that excuse Satan? It did not excuse those men who put Jesus to death, so I suspect not.
     
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    11,094
    Likes Received:
    2,446
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [​IMG]

    Jon one of the most powerful pictures on the internet is Forgiven by Thomas Blackshear, so who is really guilty?... Brother Glen:)
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,931
    Likes Received:
    3,628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree. I don't believe it was an accident that those who killed Jesus were comprised of two distinct groups (the Jews and Gentiles).

    On a broader scope, all of mankind were in bondage to sin. Christ suffered, literally, the wages of sin inflicted by the powers of the World. From man's perspective they acted in ignorance (Peters words) for they listened to Satan's lies (Jesus' words). That places Satan as the author of Christ's death but does not excuse man. And this was in accordance with God's predetermined plan. It would break the chains.


    What concerns me is the poll. I understand that theologies vary and that there are many aspects we can examine.

    BUT we have members here (I don't know who...I assume Van is one) that indicated on the poll they did not believe Jesus was delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God by men who nailed Him to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. They do not believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus did the things which they heard from their father. That they were doing the deeds of their father.

    That is concerning because regardless of disagreements within Christianity, those things being denied are God's Word.
     
Loading...