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Featured Did You Love the Light or the Darkness?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Dec 11, 2017.

  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    There are apparently two types of people discussed below. Please explain, in your response, who are the people described in this text? Who are those who love the darkness, because their deeds are evil, and who are those who do what is true and come to the light so that their deeds may be clearly seen as being carried out by God?

    John 3:19–21

    [19] And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. [20] For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. [21] But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (ESV)
     
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  2. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Prior to being saved, did you love the light or the darkness?
     
  3. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Did the tax collectors and prostitutes who were followers of Christ love the light or darkness *prior* to following Him? Were their deeds good or evil?
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Those described in vv. 3,5,7,8, i.e., those born from above/born of the Spirit.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I was fortunate in that I grew up in the church, and, in all honesty Jesus Christ has been my hero from my earliest memories. That's not to say there weren't periods in my life where I've wallowed in the darkness and my deeds were evil, but the goodness of God has always prevailed and drawn me back to the light.
     
  6. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Not many brave enough to touch this one it seems. . .
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Did Nathanael 'love the light' prior to coming to Christ?:
    47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! [ref Romans 2:29]

    Did all those devout Jews at Pentecost 'love the light' prior to hearing the gospel?:
    5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Acts 2

    Did the Ethiopian eunuch 'love the light' prior to Philip being sent to him?:
    27 And he arose and went: and behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was over all her treasure, who had come to Jerusalem to worship;

    28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Acts 8

    Did devout Cornelius 'love the light' prior to Peter being sent to him?:
    1 Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
    2 a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. Acts 10

    Did Lydia 'love the light' prior to hearing Paul?:
    14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul. Acts 16

    What was it that drew Nicodemus 'to the light' that faithful night? [ref John 3:1-2]:
    38 And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body.
    39 And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. Jn 19

    ...and no doubt there's many more examples...
     
  8. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    You are missing the point of the text.

    Why is it that people refused to come to the light?

    If your assertion is correct, sinner can't be saved. Sinners are people who have committed evil deeds, and the last time I checked, all men have sinned; therefore all men hide from the light, just as Adam and Eve did. It is only the act of Christ seeking and saving that causes the unique situation of sinners coming into the light.
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No. I understand it.

    Question for you:
    6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5

    Is it possible that those prostitutes and tax collectors were hungry and thirsty for righteousness PRIOR to becoming followers of Christ, and THEN they were filled? Even when they were wallowing in their sin, is it possible that they were longing for something else?

    Yes. I'm convinced that's exactly the case.
     
  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Calvinist answer: These people were already regenerated.
    Non-Cal response: Where does it say that in scripture?
    Calvinist counter response: How do you know they weren't?
    and so on and so forth...
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I'm no Calvinist, and, you've 'Calvinist' on the brain. Lol, be bery bery careful, there's a Calvinist hiding behind every bush.
     
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  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Here are some more examples of people that didn't hide from the Light of the World, didn't hate God:

    The Magi sought out the Christ child.
    Zaccheus sought out Jesus.
    The Centurion sought out Jesus.
    Blind men sought him out.
    A DEMON POSSESSED man sought him out.
    Jairus sought out Jesus.

    etc. etc. etc. etc.
     
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  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    No one seeks after God. No, not one. If men were righteous prior to Christ, they would have no need of Him. It takes righteousness to seek righteousness.

    Unregenerate men long for freedom from the consequences of sin, but they do not long for God. In fact, they are at enmity with Him, according to my Bible.

    The Beatitudes are promised, but not yet delivered, unless you have inherited the Earth, and haven't told me about it.

    "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Blessed are they who mourn,
    for they shall be comforted.

    Blessed are the meek,
    for they shall inherit the earth.

    Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they shall be satisfied.

    Blessed are the merciful,
    for they shall obtain mercy.

    Blessed are the pure of heart,
    for they shall see God.

    Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they shall be called children of God.

    Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
     
  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Churches are filled with lost people every Sunday seeking God.

    So you say with no Biblical evidence.
     
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  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Now THIS is your Calvinist response, right out of the play book:

     
    #15 kyredneck, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Egad man, what do you think that Lydia and Cornelius and the Ethiopian eunuch and Nicodemus etc. were doing?

    26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;
    27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
    28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Acts 17

    The fact that someone is seeking is evidence that they are ALIVE. BORN FROM ABOVE. [Galatians 4:26].
     
    #16 kyredneck, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    <_______________________>
     
  18. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    No one who God is not drawing to Christ - no man on his own, seeks God.
     
  19. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    I'll post this text again, and I hope that someone will actually read what it says before commenting.

    "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    K. No problem with that. Did you somewhere perceive I was disputing that?
     
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