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Dispensational Things...pt2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jan 17, 2018.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In the soon to be closed thread JOJ posted this;
    Does any of the accounts of the Triumphal Entry....say that Jesus...."rejected the Kingdom?"
    If so...where is that found?

    Is anyone suggesting this? Does anyone here defend this idea that the Throne of David is internal and spiritual? Or how would you answer JOJ here concerning;
    1] Davids throne

    2] the Kingdom...in what way is it actual

    Scripture is required to answer here....no tweets without scripture.

    Many times before Pentecost Jesus did not "correct" misunderstandings;
    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


    Does anyone think David would be puzzled as to what happened to his throne...If the Lord was enthroned?
     
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Why Every Calvinist Should Be a Premillennialist, #1
    Why Every Calvinist Should Be a Premillennialist, #2
    Why Every Calvinist Should Be a Premillennialist, #3
    Why Every Calvinist Should Be a Premillennialist, #4
    Why Every Calvinist Should Be a Premillennialist, #5
    Why Every Calvinist Should Be a Premillennialist, #6


    these sermons are responded to here;
    Riddleblog - A Reply to John MacArthur
    Understanding the difference between the amillennial hermeneutic and the dispensational hermeneutic is the key to understanding the essence of this debate. Every major dispensational theologian from Walvoord to Pentecost to Ryrie to MacArthur himself, insists that God has two distinct redemptive programs–one for national Israel and one for the Gentiles. MacArthur clearly affirms this dispensational presupposition in the quote above.

    Reformed amillennarians reject this understanding of God's redemptive purposes. God’s purpose is not to save two distinct peoples (divided by ethnicity), but to save his people (the elect), a multitude which no man can number (Revelation 7:9), and which includes each and every one of those whom God has chosen, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

    In Ephesians 2:11-22, Paul addresses this very point when discussing God’s redemptive purpose for Gentiles and national Israel. Here, Paul flat-out contradicts the dispensational assertion that God has distinct redemptive purposes for national Israel and for the church. According Paul, God’s purpose in the New Covenant is to remove the ethnic distinctions between Jew and Gentile (between Israel and the church) which had been dividing them. Paul says that Jesus came to tear down the barrier wall which formerly divided the two, in order to make the two peoples into one so as to form Jew and Gentile together into the one living temple of the Lord–the church. In this spiritual temple, Christ is the chief cornerstone, and the foundation is the prophets and apostles.

    While dispensationalists will concede that this is God’s purpose for the present age, they say Israel’s distinct role resurfaces again after the Rapture when the Gentile church is removed from the earth. This dual redemptive purpose then carries on throughout the millennial age after Christ comes back. If true, this means that it is Christ’s purpose to make the two peoples one is only temporary. God intends to divide Israel (ethnic Jews) again from the Gentiles after the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11).

    Of course, this makes no sense whatsoever. In fact, such a view forces us to see the future millennial age as something completely distinct from Christ’s redemptive purpose under the New Covenant. On these terms, the as-yet future millennium marks a return to Old Testament types and shadows and ignores the fact that the reality is Christ. This not only means that redemptive history takes a giant U-turn after Christ comes back, amounting to a return to the types and shadows which preceded the coming of the Messiah, but it completely ignores the very thing Christ came to do–make the two peoples one by removing all ethnic divisions which previously divided believers! The progress of redemption takes us from promise (types and shadows) to fulfillment (anti-types), not from promise, to temporary (or transitional) fulfillment, and then finally back to the types and shadows.

    This is why a Christ-centered hermeneutic changes everything and why this hermeneutic lies at the heart of the differences between Reformed amillennialism and dispensationalism. As Bob Strimple (the former president of Westminster Seminary California, and now professor emeritus of systematic theology) points out in a lecture he often gives on this very topic, there are a number of reasons why Israel’s role in the Old Testament was preparatory to the coming Christ, and can therefore cannot serve as the hermeneutical center of Scripture. The fact is that Christ comes to fulfill (literally) all of the Old Testament promises, not to temporarily put them aside, only to return to them in a future millennium. Strimple bases his view that Christ is the true Israel on the following biblical arguments:

    1). Isaiah’s servant songs have a double referent that has long baffled Jewish commentators. On the one hand, they refer to Israel, God’s chosen one and servant (41:8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 49:3). On the other, they seem also to refer to some individual (42:1-4). These prophesies are interpreted by the New Testament as referring to Christ (Matthew 8:17 and Acts 8:30-35)

    2). Matthew sees a double referent in Hosea 11:1, ("Out of Egypt I called my son")

    3). Paul identifies Christ, not physical Israel, as Abraham’s seed (Galatians 3:16). Galatians 3:7 and Romans 4:11, 16, moreover, identify the church as Abraham’s offspring.

    4). Henceforth, we are in Christ the true Israel: Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 2:28-29, and Philippians 3:3.

    5). The Old Covenant is obsolete, having been superseded by the New: Hebrews 8:8-12 identifies the new covenant with Israel (Jeremiah 31:33-34) with the covenant instituted by Christ with the church. Most importantly, Hebrews 8:13 declares the old covenant obsolete and passing away. This makes impossible the dispensational view of Ezekiel 40-48 as a reinstitution of temple sacrifice.

    6). The upshot is that the Old Testament did not see how its own prophesies were to be fulfilled - indeed, it could not prior to Christ. The New Testament authors were able to interpret the Old Testament in the light of His coming of the new covenant that He instituted. So should we.

    As Strimple points out, this means that Jesus is the true Israel, and that all Scripture–especially its prophetic sections–must be read through a Christ-centered hermeneutic, not a dispensational one which centers upon national Israel.

    In his lecture, MacArthur makes the point that since God elects Israel, and since “Israel means Israel,” any other approach to eschatology destroys the perspicuity of the Old Testament. Yes, Dr. MacArthur is right that Israel always means Israel, but that’s not the point.

    When the writers of the New Testament see Israel in the light of the coming of Jesus Christ, they now see that the nation of Israel and the Sinaitic covenant which established it, were intended by God to point ahead to the coming of Jesus. That’s what Paul is getting at in Galatians 3:19-25, when he speaks of the law as intended by God to prepare the way for the coming of Christ. This is because the law exposes our sin and like a school-master drives us to Christ.

    But this truth was largely hidden in the types and shadows of the Old Testament era in redemptive history because Christ had not yet come and the ultimate purpose of the law could not yet be seen. But this same truth is impossible to escape after Jesus steps out of type and shadow onto the center stage of redemption (Galatians 4:4-5). It Jesus who now tells us the true purpose of the Old Covenant–“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me" (John 5:39). This is not amillennial "spiritualizing" of Scripture, it is the method of biblical



    Short Response to Dr. MacArthur's Comment on Amillennialism | Monergism
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  4. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    The Dispensational Distinction
    Between Israel and the Church

    Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, we find that in origin, calling, promises, worship, principles of conduct and future destiny all is contrast.14Perhaps the central doctrine of dispensationalism is the distinction between Israel and the church. Dispensationalism sees Israel as an earthly people with earthly promises, and the church as a heavenly people with heavenly promises. Membership in Israel is by natural birth.15 One enters the church by supernatural birth. Dispensationalists view Israel and the church as having distinct eternal destinies. Israel will receive an eternal earthly Kingdom, and the church an eternal heavenly Kingdom.

    Darby, the father of dispensationalism, stated the distinction in the clearest of terms "The Jewish nation is never to enter the church."16 Ryrie considers this the most important dispensational distinction, and approves the statement that the "basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity."17

    In contrast, Christian theology has always maintained the essential continuity of Israel and the church. The elect of all the ages are seen as one people, with one Savior, one destiny. This continuity can be shown by examining a few Old Testament prophesies with their fulfillment. Dispensationalists admit that if the church can be shown to be fulfilling promises made to Israel their system is doomed.

    If the church is fulfilling Israel's promises as contained in the new covenant or anywhere in the Scriptures, then [dispensational] premillennialism is condemned, Gospel Plow,
     
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  5. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Spoken to Israel -

    "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls. -Joel 2:28-32

    Applied to the church -When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place..."But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' -Acts 2:1,16-21

    Spoken to Israel -'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." -Exodus 19:6

    Applied to the church -But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; -1 Peter 2:9

    Spoken to Israel -"My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. -Ezekiel 37:27

    Applied to the church -And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." -2 Cor 6:16

    Spoken to Israel -"Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy. -Lev 19:2

    Applied to the church -but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." -1 Peter 1:15-16

    Spoken to Israel -"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- -Jer 31:31

    Applied to the church -Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. -Luke 22:20
     
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  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Classical Dispensationalists understood this problem and so Progressive Dispensationalism was born ostensibly at Dallas Theological Seminary. However, P.D. cannot escape the basic tenets of Classical Dispensationalism and runs into the temporary fulfillment problem the article mentions.
     
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    McClain continues;
    okay...agreed


    Now he begins to give His idea of how He see's Kingdom in scripture....

    He lists 6 things;The Universal Kingdom of God
    1]This universal kingdom is something which has always existed.

    2]This kingdom is universal in the most complete sense of that term

    3]The rule of this kingdom operates generally through second causes; that is, what theologians have sometimes called the rule of ordinary providence.

    4]Upon special occasions and under certain circumstances the rule of God in this universal kingdom may operate directly through divine miracles

    5]The kingdom of God in this universal sense exists regardless of the attitude of those under its rule

    6]
    In the light of these facts, it becomes clear that this universal kingdom could not have been precisely that kingdom of God for which our Lord taught his disciples to pray,

    then this;The Mediatorial Kingdom of God

    1]The mediatorial kingdom began in historical form with Moses and continued under the early great leaders who followed. This period is marked by the mediation of God’s rule through Moses, Joshua, the judges, and Samuel.

    2]The constitution and laws of the kingdom were given at Sinai.

    3]The mediatorial kingdom in history reached the pinnacle of its glory under the first three kings

    4]The decline of the mediatorial kingdom in Old Testament history.

    I am not sure I agree with his ideas here....
     
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  8. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Abraham met the eternal & only King-Priest in Scripture when he met Melchizedek - the most high God.
     
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  9. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I don't agree with David Kent, as Jesus withdrew from those who wanted to make him king:
    John 6:15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

    However Jesus' kingship was never in any doubt, even from before his birth:
    Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

    Mat. 2:2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?

    If I understand him correctly, the point John is making is that Jesus' status as King is NOT over a physical kingdom on David's throne. Where Gabriel prophesied "of His kingdom there will be no end" John is waiting for Jesus' everlasting kingdom to begin.

    Throughout his earthly ministry, Jesus showed himself to be King of the Kingdom of God:
    Mark 1:14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

    John 1:49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
    50 Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe?


    John 12:14 Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written:
    15 “Fear not, daughter of Zion;
    Behold, your King is coming, Sitting on a donkey’s colt.”

    Isaiah's prophecy is highly relevant:
    9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
    there will be no end.
    He will reign on David’s throne
    and over his kingdom,
    establishing and upholding it
    with justice and righteousness
    from that time on and forever.
    The zeal of the LORD Almighty
    will accomplish this.
    It is preposterous to maintain that Jesus is waiting for a future dispensation before he can take the throne & begin his eternal kingdom, that was his by sovereign right, and that by his resurrection proved his claim.

    Is he waiting for a chair in Jerusalem when he is King of all the universe? As his citizens, we recognise his eternal heavenly throne over both the spiritual dimension & the physical.

     
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  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I would modify that to read 'the eternal & only King-Priest-Prophet in Scripture'.
     
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Jewish nation rejected her King, so will be postponed until time of His second coming!
     
  12. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Not so - the Jewish people in their thousands responded to the Apostolic Gospel from Pentecost onwards. 5-8,000 in the first few days. In Acts 6 we see the whole multitude including a great number of the priests.

    The Jews welcomed the Gospel - the self curse his blood be on us and our children before Calvary was cancelled at Pentecost as Peter preached the promise is to you & your children.

    The fact that the Jewish leaders rejected their Messiah in no way obstructed the purposes of God.
     
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God used their rejection to include the Gentiles under Christ, but when israel returns to Jesus as their Messiah, what a Day that will be, per peter in Acts!
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The quote I responded to said;
    Do you have that scripture?

    now you tweeted this...
    What scripture are you thinking of that suggests a "postponement"???
    i cannot just take your word on it...I need some scripture...
     
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  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Disagree.

    33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth
    , from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt23

    It was cancelled ONLY for those that heeded the exhortation:

    40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

    23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3
     
    #16 kyredneck, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Again...where do you see any postponement???
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Peter stated in Acts that Jesus is being held now in heaven, as God would have brought the Kingdom at His first coming to israel, they rejected Him, and so that will come to them at His second coming!
     
  18. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    The crowd were persuaded - the Gospel cancels the self curse for those who repent. His saving blood was then on them.
     
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  19. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    You should know by now - Yes1 doesn't believe in posting Scripture. He just says what he thinks.
     
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