Dispensationalism

[Ziggy]

HD: "Please proceed with the evidence that a pre-trib rapture was taught anywhere in church history before the 1830s. I'm still waiting. I'd be happy to see it and learn."

Ps-Ephraem Syrus, 7th century AD:

"For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come. They are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

—The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition (U. Of Calif. Press, 1985, p. 210).

 

[Covenanter]

And concerning the repeated requests for "evidence" in "the church" history. Boy does "the church" sound familiar. "the church", that married the secular world, by necessity had to hide the Truth, and has always persecuted those that believe.

You are right about "church" history. History is always written by victors in carnal/secular warfare, What are called "churches" in history are organisations that have usurped power. The true church, comprising faithful believers is usually outside the organised churches, and its humble members are persecuted. If they write their own history, their books have been burned, or confiscated and hidden in the Vatican library.

Paul made it crystal clear, while he was yet active, that many had gone out, and that if they were legit, that they would surely not have gone out.

What the Lord promised us was not "the church", a persecutory entity.

What the Lord promised to send was the Holy Spirit.

The number one identifier of "the church" and it's fellow Replacement Theology offshoots is their boasting against the natural olive branches.

Thank God that I know that I'm just a lowly Sinner saved by Grace. I boast in the Lord Jesus Christ.

No. The number one identify of the true church is preaching the Gospel of repentance and baptism into Christ.

 

[37818]

. . . the Gospel of repentance . . . .

Why does not the word of God call the Gospel that?

 

[1689Dave]

HD: "Please proceed with the evidence that a pre-trib rapture was taught anywhere in church history before the 1830s. I'm still waiting. I'd be happy to see it and learn."

Ps-Ephraem Syrus, 7th century AD:

"For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come. They are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

—The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition (U. Of Calif. Press, 1985, p. 210).

Why didn't Jesus or the apostles teach it? They taught the exact opposite.

 

[Humble Disciple]

HD: "Please proceed with the evidence that a pre-trib rapture was taught anywhere in church history before the 1830s. I'm still waiting. I'd be happy to see it and learn."

Ps-Ephraem Syrus, 7th century AD:

"For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come. They are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

—The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition (U. Of Calif. Press, 1985, p. 210).

The reason why it's called "Pseudo-Ephraem" is because Ephraem himself didn't write it. Is this the best evidence you have?

How will Christians be prepared for the coming tribulation if they just expect to be raptured anyway, before anything bad happens? Christians have been martyred throughout church history.

 

[Humble Disciple]

The true church, comprising faithful believers is usually outside the organised churches, and its humble members are persecuted.

How many years were there between the 1830s and the Protestant Reformation? Why did it take so many years before anyone advocated a pre-tribulation rapture?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Belief in premillenialism was common in the early church, yet none of the early church fathers taught a pre-tribulation rapture, and neither did they teach that animal sacrifice will be re-instituted during the millennium. That would go against Jesus being the once and for all sacrifice, and suggests that the Jewish people don't need Jesus' blood to be saved.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Why does not the word of God call the Gospel that?

What is your view of repentance?

 

[thomas15]

I think this has become the Pseudo-Puritan Board.

 

[Ziggy]

HD : "The reason why it's called "Pseudo-Ephraem" is because Ephraem himself didn't write it. Is this the best evidence you have?"

No question it was wrongly attributed to Ephraem Syrus, who died in AD 373 (4th century). As pointed out in my post, the material quoted was written sometime in the 7th century AD,— which itself shows that the position was held within church history *before* AD 1830 (which was your challenge to find, right?). I rest my case.

 

[Humble Disciple]

HD : "The reason why it's called "Pseudo-Ephraem" is because Ephraem himself didn't write it. Is this the best evidence you have?"

No question it was wrongly attributed to Ephraem Syrus, who died in AD 373 (4th century). As pointed out in my post, the material quoted was written sometime in the 7th century AD,— which itself shows that the position was held within church history *before* AD 1830 (which was your challenge to find, right?). I rest my case.

What you have is one quote based on a misattributed author. That's not exactly the basis of forming a sound theology. Have you read the text from Pseudo-Ephraem in its entirety, to make sure it's not being quoted out of context?

 

[Ziggy]

Given the lengthy quote, it is hardly something that could be taken "out of context".

And yes, I trust the scholars and the university press that published their work to have passed sufficient peer review.

Are you just unhappy to find a 7th century source predating your 1830 cutoff?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Are you just unhappy to find a 7th century source predating your 1830 cutoff?

Historical theology isn't based on one pseudonymous source, which may or may not have been quoted out of context.

Although the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture does not appear in the earliest
Christian writings, scholars have discovered a handful of pretribulational writings from
church history which predate Darby. For example, a sermon by Pseudo-Ephraem (4th-6th
century) titled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World” states, “All
the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come,
and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which
overwhelms the world because of our sins.”14...
https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1037&context=symp_grad

The early Christians were under intense persecution. Anyone who converted to the faith knew what they were getting into. They didn't expect to be raptured before anything bad happens.

 

[Ziggy]

The book can be read online. Search for it. The author was Paul Alexander, late professor at Berkeley. Book then edited by Prof. Dorothy Abrahamse (Cal State, Long Beach). Neither had any theological axe to grind regarding the point being made by Ps-Ephraem or any other apocalyptic writer cited.

Are you *seriously* charging a reputable scholar with having taken the quote out of context to somehow suit his agenda? And all this just because it doesn't fit your preferred theological/historical narrative? Really?

My point was simple: to show the view was held by at least one person prior to 1830, which was your challenge. That has been done.

 

[Humble Disciple]

My point was simple: to show the view was held by at least one person prior to 1830, which was your challenge. That has been done.

As a pseudonymous work, it could have been made up my anyone, including a heretic. On the other hand, we have the vast testimony of the early church fathers in favor of a post-tribulation rapture.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Another problem with dispensationalism is its sharp distinction between Israel and the church.

The Greek word for church in the New Testament, ekklesia, is the same word that the Septuagint uses for the nation of Israel:

Where the Masoretic Text uses the term qahal, the Septuagint usually uses the Koine Greek term ekklesia, ἐκκλησία,[1] which means "summoned group" (literally, "they who are called out").[4][5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qahal

The early Christians understood the church as the fulfillment of true Israel, with unbelieving Jews no longer part of it.

"Eklektos" is also the term from which we get the English word "elect," because the early Christians believed themselves to be chosen by God, just like ancient Israel.

 

[thomas15]

My experience with foes of Dispensationalism is that they tend to get all of their information from other foes of Dispensationalism and shy away from checking out the sources themselves. With that in mind I feel this is a waste of time but in defense of the faith I proceed...

Two books I have and really like. The first is titled Ancient Dispensational Truth 2018 James C. Morris This is an informative 139 pager where he gives in context quotes for several ECFs prior to 400 AD that indicate a "Dispensational" understanding. Among them are Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Jerome, Agustin and Crysostem.

Dispensationalism Before Darby - Seventeenth-Century and Eighteenth-Century English Apocalypticism 2015 William C. Watson. The fact that this well researched book has been around for 6 years and has been ignored by reformed A-MILS/Post Mils is all the proof that one needs to state that those who repeat that Dispensationalism is a 19th century invention are simply uninformed and happy to be so.

 

[thomas15]

Another problem with dispensationalism is its sharp distinction between Israel and the church.

The Greek word for church in the New Testament, eklektos, is the same word that the Septuagint uses for the nation of Israel:
jarom.net

The early Christians understood the church as the fulfillment of true Israel, with unbelieving Jews no longer part of it.

"Eklektos" is also the term from which we get the English word "elect," because the early Christians believed themselves to be chosen by God, just like ancient Israel.

I would like to say that you should quit while you still have your dignity but it appears that your train has already left the station.

 

[Jec81]

1 Corinthians 9:17 or if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) "economy": - dispensation stewardship.

 

[Humble Disciple]

1 Corinthians 9:17 or if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

administration (of a household or estate); specifically a (religious) "economy": - dispensation stewardship.

There's a difference between a "dispensation" and "dispensationalism."

Dispensationism is a distinct theology, originating in the 1830s, that draws a sharp distinction between Israel and the church, teaches a pretribulation rapture, and that animal sacrifice will be re-instituted during the millennial kingdom.

Dispensationalists are my Christian brothers and sisters. I care more about your love for Jesus than the rightness of your theology. But to pretend that dispensationalism is the default interpretation of the New Testament ignores 1800 years of church history.