Diane you go girl. Preach it sister...um wait...some may take offense to a woman preaching. You go girl!
Do Calvinists act like Arminians?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by David Ekstrom, Jun 23, 2005.
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"They did not want to repent." Larry...God didn't want them to, according to Calvinism.
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John Darby said: Grace rises above all these thoughts - all these feelings of the heart. It teaches us to think of all men with love. We belong to a Saviour-God, who acts in the gospel towards all men with love. -
(BTW - are you related to the Stroms of Norway?)
What "other kind" of predestination were you thinking of?
This means we are just as well advised to give our Calvinist sermon and sit down - saying "HEar me - NOTHING I say here today and NOTHING you choose here today will make ANY CHANGE AT ALL in what God has decided to do or who He chooses to ELECT. But maybe - just maybe today is the day God just so happened to pick for someone here to come forward. Let us sit and be very very watchful and see if someone is in that group. Silence everyone! Lets watch what God may have chosed to do today!"
Funny how they never choose that direct Calvinist approach!
By Contrast - SEE Paul arguing that he hopes that Jealousy MIGHT be used to persuade SOME of the Jews to be saved in Romans 11 !!
In 2Cor 5 "WE BEG YOU on behald of Christ BE RECONCILED to GOD"!!
The Arminian methods are frequent and obvious.
In Christ,
Bob -
God knew Jonah would turn, repent and go to Ninevah. God knew the people in Ninevah would turn back to HIM. Why bother with Jonah or Ninevah at all if those who were chosen didn't need to make a choice??
My denial of acceptance of your theology is based on the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit in MY life when I study scripture. No amount of bullying by any Calvinst will change what is shown to me by the Holy Spirit. I, in fact, see that Calvinists seem to all disagree on what Calvinists believe.
I deserve hell. There but by the sacrificial blood of Christ Jesus, go I. IMHO, To purport that I was chosen BEFORE the blood sacrifice empties the cross of its power! -
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That's Free Will! That's not a Calvinist position! -
Is God's knowledge perfect? I think we would agree that Yes, it is. Therefore, whatever God knows is certainly going to come to pass. There is no chance that it won't come to pass.
Is God's perfect knowledge eternal? Yes, otherwise God would have been changing, growing in his knowledge. This is in fact, the position of the open theists, and the process theologians.
Since God's eternal perfect knowledge knew that Diane would choose to be saved before hte foundation of the world, was there any chance that Diane could exercise her "free will" to choose differently? The answer, obviously, is no. YOu had no chance to change your mind. YOu could argue that if you were going to change your mind then God knew that too. Which I would agree, and point out that the conquent of that is that there is no chance that you wouldn't change your mind.
God's eternal knowledge renders all choices certain, and removes any "free will" as your side tries to define it. You can't do anything but what God knows you will do.
Let's take it a step further. God knows that "Joe" will reject him. God knows that Joe will then spend eternity in hell. God, knowing that Joe will do that, allows him to come into this world anyway. How is that loving?
You have unwittingly worked yourself into a quandary from which there is no real escape.
I can't help but notice as well that you didn't tell us what God meant when he said that he "chose you to salvation." Is there a reason you skipped over that? -
Man doesn't repent because he doesn't want to. That is the Calvinist position. All who are willing can come. God does not turn anyone away who wants to be saved.
You have been listening to the wrong people. You guys think I am crazy when I say you are uninformed about Calvinism. And then you repeatedly show me to be correct in that assertion. -
Start with the 'you Arminians' again and I'll call you a Calvinite.
Honestly Larry. You're the one talking in circles and not getting anywhere. -
Actually, Diane, you're the one who just said
I will say something very different, and that is:
I AM COMPLETELY READY AND WILLING TO GIVE UP MY CALVINISM AND RENOUNCE IT AS HERESY, IN PART OR IN WHOLE-------IF I CAN BE SHOWN FROM SCRIPTURE THAT IT IS WRONG -
Let's just try a simple question:
If God's knows before you are ever born that you will do something, are you free to do something else? Or is your freedom limited by God's knowledge?
And I notice you still won't answer Scripture. Why not tell us what you think God meant when he said he "chose you to salvation"? Is that too hard of a question?
As for me, I will gladly give up Calvinism the moment I can be shown from Scripture that God said something else. -
Well Diane,
At least I tried.
I offered you a free book written by a Southern Baptist Professor, a Book that was published by Lifeway and promoted as the Annual Doctrinal Study Book for the whole SBC Convention and it is still being sold at Lifeway.
Now I ask you a question - Why would Lifeway continue to sell and promote the book if Calvinism is Wrong? -
and you are the first Calvinist I've heard say that "God is not desiring the death of the wicked". I was shocked when I read that. -
Why not affirm tht God chose us to salvation before the foundation of the world, that no one can resist God's will, and that God does not desire the death of the wicked? All are clearly taught in Scripture. Why deny the first?
This doesn't help you anyway because the only escape from this "conundrum" is open theism. But this questions of yours was asked 2000 years ago at least, and Paul under the inspiration of hte Spirit addressed it in a way that is a sufficient answer for me. Who am I to add to what God said about this "problem" in Romans 9?
The truth is that man is not willing to repent, and God honors that free will and lets him go. Why would you object to that? Isn't that what you want? -
Pastor Larry is right when he says that
God's foreknowledge precludes a common definition of free will, namely, that you are free if and only if you could have chosen otherwise. No, the very fact that the outcome is infallibly known makes the outcome infallibly certain. Hence, while you exercised free will in making the choice, you didn't have the freedom to make a different choice. In other words, free will does not mean that you could always do otherwise. It must mean something else. It must mean that you are free if you get to choose what you want without external coercion.
That doesn't mean that man has no free will at all. That doesn't mean that God is pleased with the damnation of sinners. That doesn't mean that God is not desirous that every lost person be saved.
It gets more complicated. Have you ever thought about how complex the issue of free will is? What exactly are you free to do? Say you have a choice between chocolate cake and eating raw liver. You are free to choose chocolate cake. But are you free to want to choose chocolate cake? In other words, you choose on the basis of your desires but you do not choose to have your desires. -
Hey, Bob.
"Strom" is a very common Swedish name. It means river or water or something. "Ekstrom" means tree by the water, or something like that. (At least I've been told. Don't know any Swedish.) It, too, is a very common Swedish name. If that's true, then Ps. 1 should be my life verse.
Whether it is or not, I thank God for all of you who are debating the meaning of God's word to try to understand its implications. You are like a tree planted by the water. Yes, there are Arminian and Calvinistic trees!
My gripe comes in when people don't base their arguments on Scripture, not with brethren who understand Scripture differently. -
To "choose" what you desire is the essence of free will. No Calvinist would EVER argue that. This is the problem with those who don't take time to properly understand the debate. Calvinist believe in man's FREE WILL. He will ALWAYS choose what he DESIRES.
The problem with some is that they have a humanistic philosophical understanding of man and not a true Biblical understanding of man. They believe that there is good in man thus he can choose good. Unfortunately, this is not Biblically correct. Man is free to choose but he will ALWAYS choose evil. He is at enmity with God and will always choose against Him. -
I Cor 1 says that the Gospel is foolishness to the natural man. He cannot understand it.
Rom 8 tells us that the flesh is opposed to God. So that even if the natural man did somehow understand the Gospel, he would be opposed to it. The more light given to the natural man, the greater the animosity he will feel. This is what Pharoah's case shows us. The Pharisees SAW Lazarus rise from the dead. What was their response? Kill him and Jesus, too.
II Cor tells us that Satan, not taking anything for granted, blinds the minds of unbelievers. So if they did understand it, and then somehow overcame their natural animosity to it, Satan would intervene to make sure they didn't want it.
Augustine, realizing this, explained that without "prevenient grace," the lost could never be saved. God would have to send His grace for anyone to believe.
Good Arminians, like Wesley, agree to this. (Otherwise, you end up with semi-Pelagianism.) They argue, however, that prevenient grace is part of common grace. While I disagree, I can respect that opinion. I would call on my Arminian brothers to beware of Pelagianism. Man is totally unable on his own to believe and repent.
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