Do most Baptists hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine?

Hrhema said:

and you also said:

So which is your belief since you contradicted yourself?... Brother Glen

 

Sorry, I should have explained it differently.
I do not believe a believer can lose their salvation based on the amount of sin they commit because we are all sinners, sin and make mistakes.

I do believe a person can totally reject Jesus, turn to a life of depravity and deep immoral sinning, say He or she wants no part of Christ and end up dying lost. The prodigal son returned.
Peter who denied the Lord repented. I am talking about someone who never ever lives for God again.
In reality becomes an atheist or an unbeliever.

 

No.......in reality was *never* a believer. This person is described (as I have stated before) in the parable of the sower/soils.

Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

In HIM,
Scott

 

We have a person who was raised in the church. Reads the Bible diligently and after much study joins the church and is baptised with a full confession of Christ. Later on in life this same person joins the military and is put in the heat of combat. He see humanity at its lowest as innocent civilians and children and those in the war zone are slaughtered and butchered. He returns to his former life a changed man as he can't understand how a God could allow the innocents to suffer and die. The God he believed in a God of love and compassion he didn't see in the battle zone but just the opposite. He quits going to church, quits reading his Bible and his prayes to God are why did you let this happen. Later on in life he stops believing in God period seeing all the daily violence and degredation and suffering in the world. He dies an old man never being reconciled to God... Is he lost?... Brother Glen

 

Glenn,
Is this a poll?
You ask:
Later on in life he stops believing in God period seeing all the daily violence and degredation and suffering in the world. He dies an old man never being reconciled to God...

Scott states:
Anotherwards, this gentleman removes his hand from the plow, turns around, never to return?

He sadly perishes, *unreconciled to God*.

In HIM,
Scott

[ April 20, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

I believe it is very dangerous to claim we know what is in a persons heart or mind.

Scott you can use the seed parable to defend your beliefs but those who believe a person can backslide uses this same parable. I do not see anywhere where Jesus said that those who heard the message were not saved.

I think that sometimes we strive so hard to defend our beliefs we don't realize that we need to balance everything out with the scriptures.
Example:

Jesus called a small child over to him and put the child among them. Then he said "I assure you, unless you TURN FROM YOUR SINS and become as little children you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven>" Matthew 18:3.

If you take this one scripture and build on it you can come to the conclusion that all of us who still sin in our weakness will never get into
Heaven.

The same applies to when Jesus says in the Book of Revelation "To him that Overcometh" will he grant to sit with him on his throne etc. We could take that scripture and declare unless we overcome sin we will never sit with him on his throne.

Jesus did not state that those whom believed but fell away was not saved. So the seed parable
could be interpreted more than one way.

Jesus himself said that there would be those who would perform miracles but would be told he never knew them. How could a non believer perform miracles?

So it goes on and on.

Scott it is obvious that you and I will never agree on this one point.

 

hrhema writes:

Scott you can use the seed parable to defend your beliefs but those who believe a person can backslide uses this same parable.

Scott reposnds:
That is a fully erroneous idea. People that utilize that idea are in biblical error. The scripture speaks for itself.

1 That day Jesus went out of (1) the house and was sitting (2) by the sea.
2 And large crowds gathered to Him, so (3) He got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd was standing on the beach.
3 And He spoke many things to them in (4) parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;
4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
8 "And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a (5) hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
9 "(6) He who has ears, let him hear."

The sower explained (by Jesus):
18 "(14) Hear then the parable of the sower.
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of (18) the world and the (19) deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some (20) a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

hrhema writes:
I do not see anywhere where Jesus said that those who heard the message were not saved.

Scott states:I assume you are referring to the parable of the sower. Re-read the parable. There is only one type of seed that becomes profitable. The parable states emphatically, "...and the one on whom seed was sown on good soil
indeed bears fruit".

hrhema writes:
I think that sometimes we strive so hard to defend our beliefs we don't realize that we need to balance everything out with the scriptures.
Example:
Jesus called a small child over to him and put the child among them. Then he said "I assure you, unless you TURN FROM YOUR SINS and become as little children you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven>" Matthew 18:3.

If you take this one scripture and build on it you can come to the conclusion that all of us who still sin in our weakness will never get into
Heaven.

Scott responds:
Actually, you again have erroneously exegeted this passage. Your application has to do with sin and un-biblical repentance. Biblical repentance is also granted by God. Salvation is also a gift. The passage has to do with salvation, not sin (literally).

I see you use the NL translation. Let us use the original Greek ok?
Matt 18:3
And (He) said, truly I say to you, if not you convert and become as little children, not at all can you enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

The Greek word for *convert* is strepso'. it has to do with being converted or changed (definition by Zodhiates word study dictionary, pg 1317, strongs word # 4762). Contrasting this to John 3:3..........

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

In the Greek......... "Born again", anothen', strongs word # 509.
Truly truly I say to you, unless if one is not generated from above, he is not able to see he kingom of God

And this verse........
John the Baptist (not Presbyterian) talking:
27 John answered and said, "(42) A man can receive nothing unless it (43) has been given him from heaven.

hrhema states:
If you take this one scripture and build on it you can come to the conclusion that all of us who still sin in our weakness will never get into
Heaven.

Scott implies:
You can do this with any scriptures. The concept is often referred to as *building straw men*. However, mainline, historical, biblical Christian orthodoxy, would not support such an erroneous claim as this idea reconstructs all that lies at the heart of our faith. Justification by faith alone is our hope! Anything else is (IMO) heresy.
*A child in the faith may think these things; this is due to either poor teaching, very young in the faith or poor hermeneutical technique.

hrhema writes:
The same applies to when Jesus says in the Book of Revelation "To him that Overcometh" will he grant to sit with him on his throne etc. We could take that scripture and declare unless we overcome sin we will never sit with him on his throne.

Scott says:
See the above comment.

hrhema writes:
Jesus did not state that those whom believed but fell away was not saved. So the seed parable
could be interpreted more than one way.

Scott exhorts:
See above. The only profitable seed was the *one* seed.

Food for thought.......

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

hrhema asks:
Jesus himself said that there would be those who would perform miracles but would be told he never knew them. How could a non believer perform miracles?

Scott responds:
You bring to light the passage Matt 7:21.
21 "(18) Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "(19) Many will say to Me on (20) that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; (21) DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

How about this idea about Abraham:
Gen 18:19 For I (God) have known him in order that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Scott adds:
Many (in that day, referring to the great and terrible *day of the Lord*) will lay claim to these attributes. Unfortunately, Christ will tell them, I never knew you. These are not believers, they practice lawlessness. They are those spoken of in Gen 6:5.

Scott asks:
How do you see Judas? Was he saved? You know that he performed miracles!

How about this idea in regards to you idea about miracles.........
Exo 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
Exo 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Exo 7:12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

or this one.........
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Scott states.......this is not from a believer!


hrhema writes:
Scott it is obvious that you and I will never agree on this one point.

Scott asks:
hrhema, Why do you think this is?

In HIM,
Sola Scriptura till I die!
Scott

[ April 20, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Scott:

The reason I will never agree that a person cannot walk away from Christ is that Jesus spoke of those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost. He was not talking to non believers but to believers.
How could a person blaspheme what he never believed in. This person will never be forgiven nor can this person be saved.

I have personally known people who served God for years. MAde a confession of faith. Prayed daily. Fasted. Studied the Word. Gave financially to the church. Taught Sunday school classes. Was baptized in belong to the church and after 20 years of faithful service quit going to church and told people he despised Christ and God. He considered the blood of Jesus a joke.
He began drinking and committing Adultery on his wife. He died in this state. I cannot believe this man went to Heaven. He willfully chose to turn away from God.

 

Since you did not walk in his shoes or lived his life or known his heart you just make an assumption. You looked on the outward appearance and God looks on the heart. I'm so thankful that heaven isn't a reward give to us based on what others think they see!... Brother Glen

 

hrhema,
I would like you to respond to my previous post to you. You do not dialog, you talk. Please attempt to give the forum the respect it deserves. Everyone here has been feverishly answering your scriptural claims, yet you do not respond back.

In HIM,
Scott

 

Well, here's a question. I went over and looked at some of the "testimonies" on the II board. Some people who proudly claim to be agnostics or atheists were once raised by Baptist parents, i.e., pastors or missionaries. They once claimed to be born again, but have renounced everything they ever believed. Are they lost? I have no doubt their parents are praying for their salvation. As a Christian parent, I surely would be.

My view is that no one can pluck me out of my Father's hand. But if I turn away and go live a life of sin, adultery, drunkenness, drugs, homosexuality, blasphemy against God, live for myself and pleasures of Satan, and never repent before I die, I have removed MYSELF from my Father's hand. MY CHOICE. Just as receiving the Gift of Salvation is a personal choice.

Here's another question: If a "Christian" falls into sin, is a drunkard and sound asleep with someone other than their marriage partner (having committed adultery) when the Last Trump sounds, are they going up? I don't think so. What do ya'll think?

A wise pastor once said (paraphrase) we are not to judge what is in another's heart, but we should be fruit inspectors.

 

If it is YOUR CHOICE and you can remove YOURSELF then aren't you the author and finisher of your own salvation?

What sin is big enough to send a person to hell? I believe they all are. The sin of Adam brought death on us all but would we consider eating a piece of fruit once a "major sin." Obviously, God views all disobedience in His creatures as major.

I think a much better question would be: If a Christian was moved to share the gospel with someone but by a lack of faith hesitated and missed the opportunity just before the Last Trump, would they go up? Your example deals with the temporal, mine the eternal. Sins of omission are just as bad as sins of commission, aren't they?

[ April 22, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

<<If it is YOUR CHOICE and you can remove YOURSELF then aren't you the author and finisher of your own salvation?>>

I interpret the passage to mean there is nothing I can add to my salvation, Christ did it all, Christ is the author and finisher of that salvation, actually the author and finisher of that faith. Period.

But if one interprets it the way you do, then no one would ever be lost. Christ did all He could do to save mankind, but ultimately the individual makes the choice, acceptance or rejection of that salvation. Free will.

Sins of omission are just as bad as sins of commission, but you still haven't answered any of the questions I posed.

 

How about King David?
Can anything usurp God's elective power? Jesus said it best, "All that the Father gives me will come unto me and I will lose none".
Now, This is not to imply that there are not false professors; there are (See the parable of the sower). But as I have pointed out previously, those that have departed from the faith, were never truly of it, ala 1 John.

A true believer, one who has had his heart washed afresh in the blood of Christ will bear fruit.

In HIM,
Scott

 

Here is an irrefutable truth about God;"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" Rom.11:29.God never regrets giving,and He never takes back what He gives.The Lord Jesus often referred to those given Him by the Father in contexts designed for our comfort and assurance.Let's let the Bible speak for itself."All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out"Jn.6:37."My sheep hear my voice,and I know them,and they follow me:And I give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father,which gave them me,is greater than all;and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand"Jn.10:27-29."Father,the hour has come;glorify thy Son,that thy Son also may glorify thee:As thou has given him power over all flesh,that He should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him"Jn.17:1-2."Holy Father,keep through thine own name those who thou hast given me"Jn.17:11."While I was with them in the world,I kept them in thy name:those that thou gavest me I have kept,and none of them is lost"Jn.17:12."Father,I will that they also,whom thou hast given me ,be with me where I am"Jn.17:24.Just notice how many of these references occur in Christ's great High Priestly prayer for His people.The Lord's great argument in prayer was that God must in fact secure those that He had given to Him.It is absolutely inconceivable and eternally impossible for the Father to turn a deaf ear to any request of His Son.Christ's prayer for us guarantees our eternal security.Our inability to comprehend completely this covenant mystery should not rob us of the sure ground of assurance it provides.It should be simple enough for us to understand that God will not take away from His Son what He has given to Him.

 

But you are adding to your salvation by saying that you must make the choice and you must sustain your salvation by not falling into sin.

Not so. According to Eph. 2:8-9, not only is grace the gift of God so is the faith unto salvation. Romans 9 makes it clear that, by electing some, God is in no way responsible for the peril of others. Left purely to our own free will, none of us "seeketh after God" (Romans 3).

A genuinely born again believer is forgiven of all his sins at the moment of salvation...past and future. However, security is no justification for ungodly living, see Romans 6, and sin that is not dealt with does interfere with a right relationship between a believer and God.

Now try my question. If in the minutes prior to the Trump, you personally have an opportunity to share the gospel with someone and fail to do so thus condemning that person to eternal torment, will you still go to heaven? If yes, why? You (hypothetically) have a terrible, unconfessed, unrepented of sin in your life to face God with. If no, then why would your sin (of dooming someone who might have been saved to hell) be less sinful than committing adultery without confession or repentance?

 

<<But you are adding to your salvation by saying that you must make the choice and you must sustain your salvation by not falling into sin. >>

No, Scott, I am not talking about "falling into sin." I am talking about a way of life.

Isn't what you are saying is a Christian can just live any way they want to, renounce God, become an atheist or agnostic, an infidel, and because they once were saved, they will go to heaven? I don't buy it.

As far as the drunkard and the adulterer, my Bible says the drunkard and adulterer will not be in Heaven.

There is a difference between falling into sin and choosing sin as a way of life. I'm not talking about falling into sin, repenting, and coming back to the Lord. I am talking about choosing sin as a way of life. Renouncing God. Living for self only.

David sinned, yes, but he repented. He fell into sin, if you want to call it that, but he repented. I am talking about someone who not only falls into sin, but chooses to live a LIFE of sin, turning one's back on God. I don't even think the saved-so-as-by-fire fits that category.

How can you have a relationship with Jesus Christ and then turn your back on Him until you die, never to repent, and still go to heaven?

It just could be that people who believe in Eternal Security no-matter-what are being deceived. Think about that. I would rather err on the side of praying for someone's salvation than to say once saved always saved.

Two cases in point: A young man and a young woman, both in 40s. I've known them since they were kids. Both saved when teenagers, raised in Christian Baptist homes. Never missed church, were in Young Peoples, were in choir, were in Sunday School. Both made professions of faith in Christ. Both were baptized. They were part of my church at the time.

The young man today is a very successful engineer but has renounced God. States he thinks its all a bunch of baloney, he is an atheist. He doesn't believe in heaven or hell. The older he's gotten, he's decided the Bible isn't true. He's sorry for hurting his mom, but that's just how it is. (His dad died several years ago.)

The young woman. Same thing. Now is a lesbian. Sorry, Mom, but I have to be happy and this is how I'm happy.

The parents of both of these people are praying for their salvation.

But with your interpretation, it's okay, once saved always saved. Sorry, I can't agree with you. It isn't anything Jesus Christ didn't do. It has been their personal choices. They have removed themselves from the Father's Hand. And I don't buy the fact that their salvation didn't "take" either.

I would rather pray for a person's salvation than to not pray for them believing they are okay because they once made a profession.

 

You don't have to buy it. All you have to do is read the Bible in its context. BTW, I am not saying anything like what you post above. Did you read the scripture I cited? It is obvious from the text and context that early in Christianity the same questions were posed and God through Paul's hand answers them.

I know what you are talking about but I don't believe it is supported by scripture. All of mankind was condemned by one sin, not a sinful way of life. Adam and Eve were pure. They weren't living a sinful lifestyle. Their one act of disobedience made individual redemption necessary for the whole human race.

Also, all sin is a matter of lifestyle no matter how "small" it is. If someone tells a "little white lie" it isn't an accident that God views as less serious than a "big" sin like deciding to get drunk. The "white lie" is nothing less than moral and spiritual weakness exposed by circumstances.

The question is whether Christ ever knew them or not. Those given to Him by the Father will not be lost.

Your whole premise is that salvation is based on what sinners do. Genuine salvation is based on what Christ did and the Holy Spirit is doing. Your examples of someone choosing to turn away from God and to sin or atheism or another religion or whatever else aren't changes of the persons genuine nature but revelations of their true nature.

What sin is not a matter of turning your back on Christ and choosing your own way?

Only if the clear teaching of scripture is false. The Bible is clear. Human works or goodness make no contribution to salvation at any point. They are an effect of salvation, not the means.

...you too.

Fallacy of limited alternatives. It isn't "either or" but both.

Again, these are not changes of character but revelations of character. The churches are full of pretenders and "head" believers. When God creates a new creature, it isn't a temporary change. We possess no more power to change back than we do to become an unfertilized egg in our mothers womb again.

The closest you can come to this doctrine either by text or example from the Bible is to say that someone could possibly lose their salvation without any future ability to be re-saved, 'can Christ be sacrificed again?' But this is weak at best and denies that God can forgive any sin.

As they should.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Nothing I have written indicates that it is okay or that these people are in any more peril than you suppose them to be.

I am not asking you to agree with me, just the Bible. BTW, when Peter denied Christ was he any less an disciple? How about the rest of them that fled?

The only thing wrong with this view is that it isn't scriptural.

I agree. Not all professions are genuine.

You still haven't answered my question. Here's another: A Christian lives an "acceptable" life (as opposed to your examples) but then his wife begins to nag him and without really noticing he builds up some resentment toward her over a week or so. Then, one day, she calls him and really let's him have it over something trivial. Soon after he gets off the phone, a married, attractive co-worker passes by and is nice to him. For just a moment, he imagines this woman as his wife. Later, without repenting, he heads for lunch and is run over by a bus. Does he go to heaven? It was certainly a matter of lifestyle and a denial of God's authority in his life that caused his unconfessed sin.

[ April 24, 2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

Here's my original question in case you missed it.

 

Scott, it seems to me that no matter what I post, we aren't communicating and are not on the same wave length. I see no point in arguing with you. We would probably differ on degrees of sin, as well.

You have STILL shown me no Biblical proof that once a person is saved, they are always saved, no matter what. And that they can't remove themselves from the Father's Hand. Only you have provided YOUR interpretation of the Scriptures. I say, this could be a deception. And we haven't even discussed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and how that ties in, have we?

I have tried to give you examples of what I am talking about, but it seems to zoom off somewhere, no offense. It just seems you are nitpicking. Your mind is made up, you are right. Once you're saved you're always saved, no matter what. And we haven't even gotten into abominations, like homosexuality, either....even though I thought I gave you a good honest down-to-earth, real-life example....

So, I hope the moderators don't mind me posting this thread from this board which has "Testimonies of Former Believers." It might give you some insight into what I have been talking about here, since obviously, I haven't done a very good job communicating in my posts.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000500&p=1

Testimonies of former believers.