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Featured Do the aborted and babies that die . . .

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, May 4, 2021.

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  1. No.

    76.5%
  2. Maybe.

    5.9%
  3. Yes.

    11.8%
  4. No opinion.

    5.9%
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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I didn't have to read them all to know where you stand. The whole difficulty with the eternal state of those who die in infancy lies in the carnal notions we have about them. Men look on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. We have no reason but superstition to imagine infant ghosts bewildered at either judgment or glory. These are spirits that know exactly what is going on and why, and in the Resurrection of the just and the unjust, they won't be raised as infants, just as the octogenarian won't be raised an aged one.

    What we cannot do, is imagine exceptions to the conditions of acceptance, and that is faith in Christ. We need to adjust our thinking about infants, not the Gospel.
     
  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Paul teaches in Romans 5 that God created from the same lump people saved by grace and the rest damned for destruction.

    “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:21–24 (KJV 1900)

    Paul later says in Ephesians the purpose of creation was to use the Church to make known his manifold wisdom to the created order.

    “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” Ephesians 3:9–10 (KJV 1900)

    There is no understanding of God apart from sin. No Goodness, no wrath, no sovereignty, no love, no mercy, no justice..... Think about how necessary sin is in order to reveal God to creation.
     
  3. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Excellent chapter describing the sovereignty of God! The question is did God actively create evil? "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated; Did god make Esau sell his birthright or did God know Esau was going to sell his birthright? Did God know in advance and use the circumstances to accomplish his desires or did God put it in Esau's heart to sell his birthright and then condemn him for it?
    9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
    Does God endure with long-suffering evil that He has created Himself?
    Is it God's intention that you be evil or does God use the circumstances that you are evil?
    Is the Clay evil or good? Does God start out with evil clay and good clay or does start out with Adams clay which when left alone is not going to be good in the end?

    It seems you believe like everyone else that before the foundation of the world evil and good were created by God and proven because elect peoples names are in the book which I don't see.

    And before all of this in a part you didn't feel you had to read my question was why does death stop God from witnessing to a baby who dies? If God can give someone the Holy Spirit after they die why can't he give the Holy Spirit to a baby after they die?
    One of the points I made is for Calvinism the sovereignty of God should be superior to man's choice but yet everyone here is saying in so many words that the baby didn't get to choose so they die; just kind of weird to me…


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4 (KJV 1900)

    “A man’s heart deviseth his way: But the LORD directeth his steps.” Proverbs 16:9 (KJV 1900)

    etc.
     
  5. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Sorry, my reply was meant for 1689 Dave


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. Titus Tarnum

    Titus Tarnum Member

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    Someone said earlier, and I don't have time right now to look it up, that if God wanted everyone to be elect everyone would be elect, Which basically means God wants some to be evil because it's in His capacity to make everybody good… That's what you get when you say only the elect are in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

    I am all about God's sovereignty but it is a question of desire for me; God knew before the foundation of the world that there would be wicked people but did God want them or were they an undesirable consequences of creation?
    Was everyone's name in the Book and as time marches on God had to blot the failures names from His book, showing that the book is a book of creation or did God only put in the book the names of the people he wanted saved showing it it's a book of salvation?
     
    #126 Titus Tarnum, May 10, 2021
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Babies still are included as being under the fall of Adam, as being guilty in Him, and the benefits of the Cross only wiped the slate clean for the redeemed in Christ!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NO, I am saying that God has chosen to have all aborted infants get to heaven due to the Cross of Christ! They cannot believe unto Lord Jesus, but God still has provided for them the Lamb!
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God has provided for all aborted babies grace of the Cross of Christ!
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Their names known to God would not to have been blotted out of His book, Revelation 20:15.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    None are ever blotted out once named there!
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not according to Exodus 32:33 first reference. Or Psalms 69:27-28.
     
  14. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    What has that got to do with the lake of fire? Nothing.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You're way off base if you're saying God sends babies to hell on account of their father's sins. In fact, that's awful! And why read infinity in torment into that?

    5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me, Ex 20

    'Visiting the father's sin unto the fourth generation' is an explanation to the Exodus generation concerning their bondage BECAUSE of what their fathers did to Joseph in betraying him and selling him into bondage. AND it was precisely the fourth generation that came out of Egypt:

    16 And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations: Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari; and the years of the life of Levi were a hundred thirty and seven years.
    17 The sons of Gershon: Libni and Shimei, according to their families.
    18 And the sons of Kohath: Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel; and the years of the life of Kohath were a hundred thirty and three years.
    19 And the sons of Merari: Mahli and Mushi. These are the families of the Levites according to their generations.
    20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father`s sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram were a hundred and thirty and seven years. Ex 6

    The fourth generation came out of Egypt just as it was precisely prophesied to Abraham:

    13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
    16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again..... Gen 15
     
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  16. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning
    This thread will be closed no sooner than 1230 am (EDT) Tue, / 930 PM PDT
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Names in the book does not in and of itself insure one's name will not be blotted out, Psalms 69:27-28. Unless one is born of God, 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5.
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

    No one is born (or conceived) with purity of heart.
     
    #138 Aaron, May 10, 2021
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Sigh, you seem to be looking for ways that humans can thwart God's will. Such a desire is strange to me, thus your desire to have human will be greater than God's will is strange.
     
  20. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    This thread is closed
    Feel free to start a new thread
     
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