Do we have a documented history?

[Bro. James]

Defining something which does not exist is like defining the "null" set or division by zero--some things are "undefinable".

This position has been supported by several verifiable facts in scripture as well as secular history.

Sometimes the answer is: None of the above.

The question as put is at best ambiguous. Some of the ambiguities have been pointed out.

Apparently critical thinking is not allowed in some areas of this forum.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
Defining something which does not exist is like defining the "null" set or division by zero--some things are "undefinable".

This position has been supported by several verifiable facts in scripture as well as secular history.

Sometimes the answer is: None of the above.

The question as put is at best ambiguous. Some of the ambiguities have been pointed out.

Apparently critical thinking is not allowed in some areas of this forum.

Selah,

Bro. James

Okay, thanks for the clarification. You're not a Baptist because Baptists don't exist! We are all phantoms. We're fools to call ourselves Baptist because we don't exist.

So go find a real forum, not a phantom one.

 

[Bro. James]

Back to square one:

This is not about documenting a name in history books--"Baptist" is a name which goes back to the time of the so-called Protestant Reformation. I hasten to point out that "Real Baptists" are not "Protestants" in the normal sense of common usage.

Having just introduced the concept of "pseudo-Baptist", I hasten to point out that one must look for a "faith and practice" to be able to identify the groups who can qualify for Mt. 16:18 and Jude 3. In other words: those who are still contending for The Faith, once for all delivered to the saints. One can still recognize a "Baptistic Faith and Practice" which predates Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Know etal by some 1500 years.

As already stated: Baptist is a post-reformation term. BAPTISTIC groups had various "names" throughout history--most of the names were coined by their enemies. Look for the: Anabaptists, Followers of Menno, heretics from Albi, followers of Waldo, Cathari, and many more. Many, not all, of these groups had Baptistic Faith and Practices, even though they were not called Baptist. Many of these groups traced their religious roots to the shores of Galilee--when Jesus started calling out His Assembly.

He said He would never leave Her nor forsake Her. He has kept his promise. The Bride is still alive and well--kept by the power of The Holy Spirit--another Comforter.

Yes, we do have a documented history--much of it written with the blood of the saints.

The New Testament Assembly, is not a phantom.

The Universal, invisible, mystical body is the real phantom.

Selah,

Bro.

 

[bro_ken128]

Since there in not "a Baptist Church" then the only way to identify one is by their faith and practice. The name Baptist was derived from the word Anabaptist. Which was given to none comforming churches during the Protestant era. Those churches that did not agree with the state church at that time were called anabaptists and disenters. However, those churches were in existence long before the Reformation. Yes there is documentation of that fact but not in the annals of "The Baptist Church". There were churches by different names of like faith and order during and before the Reformation. A good reference is Baptist History by John Christian.

 

[bro_ken128]

That may be a History of the Baptist by John Christian. There are many good books on Baptist History other than the modern contemporary ones that limit our origin to the Reformation period.

Thanks for the ink.

 

[bro_ken128]

I would like to add this coment. Bro.James, Brsgatharp and I are probably more Baptist than anyone else in this forum. Yes we are Baptist in faith and practice. That makes us "BAPTISTS" in the greatest degree. If a church practices the Biblical doctrines laid out in the Bible verbatum then they would be considered as Baptist today.

 

[bro_ken128]

John of Japan,
Why are your here then. You don't appear to be Baptistic in anyway. How can you call yourself a Baptist then. If you are looking for a worldly definition of what a Baptist is then you don't need to be here.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by bro_ken128:
I would like to add this coment. Bro.James, Brsgatharp and I are probably more Baptist than anyone else in this forum. Yes we are Baptist in faith and practice.

That's a rather holier-than-thou statement. I suppose if I call myself Bro Johnv then I will be as baptist as you.

If a church practices the Biblical doctrines laid out in the Bible verbatum then they would be considered as Baptist today.

That doesn't make a church Baptist, just biblical in practice. There's no biblical mandate to require Baptism as a prerequisite for church membership, yet we Baptists require such. In the church I attended when I was in college, I had not yet been baptzed as a baliever (though I had been a believer since about age 17). I chose to get baptized later that summer. I had the world's largest baptistry: the Pacific Ocean. I can find nothing in scripture that implies that church was less biblical than the church I attend now.

It seems we Baptists can be quite bapticentric, can't we? In fact, that very notion has made me consider leaving the Baptist faith in favor of either the Reformed or Quaker faith.

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by bro_ken128:
Bro.James, Brsgatharp and I are probably more Baptist than anyone else in this forum.

John of Japan,
Why are your here then. You don't appear to be Baptistic in anyway. How can you call yourself a Baptist then. If you are looking for a worldly definition of what a Baptist is then you don't need to be here.

This has always been run as a clean forum. When I first joined, we had civilized dicussions among Primitives, Missionaries, Independents, Southern Baptists and folks of all stripes. It will remain that way, and self-righteous nonsense will not be tolerated.

Thank you for your consideration.

rsr

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by rsr:
It will remain that way, and self-righteous nonsense will not be tolerated.

Thank you for your consideration.

rsr

That is just a civilized way of saying, YOU SHUT UP OR WE WILL KICK YOU OUT. LOL!

Mark Osgatharp

 

[rsr]

I have never "kicked out" anyone from the forum. I will, however, snip off-topic and inflammatory posts. That's my job.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by bro_ken128:
John of Japan,
Why are your here then. You don't appear to be Baptistic in anyway. How can you call yourself a Baptist then. If you are looking for a worldly definition of what a Baptist is then you don't need to be here.

Whoa! What is a "worldly definition" of a Baptist? I'd settle for any definition! What I don't want is a Zen Baptist koan that I can't make any sense of.

And huh? I don't appear to be Baptist in any way? And you know me from where?

For the record, I was born in a Baptist hospital. I was saved at age 4, baptized by immersion in a Baptist church at age 6, graduated from a Baptist college which was under a local Baptist church. I am a 4th generation Baptist preacher who has preached in hundreds of Baptist churches, started two Baptist churches and taught in two Baptist Bible schools (both under local Baptist churches). BUT NONE OF THIS MAKES ME A BAPTIST.

I say it is my beliefs that make me a Baptist. What do you say? Do you have a definition? If you don't, how can this thread have any meaning to you?

 

[rsr]

Thread reopened provisionally.

[ October 28, 2005, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[Bro. James]

A provisional statement: The Lord knows them that are His; His sheep hear His voice and they follow him--and none other.

Unsolicited observation: there are dozens of groups called Baptist. Many seem to have tinkling cymbals and sounding brass. God is not the author of confusion.

Jude 3b: ...and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[John of Japan]

I agree with you, Bro. James--I think! It is always so hard to figure our what you are saying, except when you quote the Bible, which speaks for itself.

So, in the interest of getting back to the original question of the thread, how can we tell which group that calls itself Baptist is really Baptist, and which is not? If we can't tell what a true Baptist is, how can we document the history?

 

[Bro. James]

"On this Rock I will build my Assembly. The gates of Hell will not
prevail against her."

Real Baptists have a documented history. So do the Pseudo Baptists. The difference: Real Baptists have most of their history written with blood. Jesus said the world hated Him--they would also hate his Bride.

Jesus has kept His Bride safe in every generation. He has never left Her nor forsaken Her. Read about: The Bride, the Lamb's wife. Is She Baptistic? The documents are there--Gen. to Rev.--Book of Acts is Baptist History Brother. Now read: "History of the Inquisitions". You decide what we have been called.
Decide wisely.

Am I speaking in riddles?

Selah,

Bro. James

[ November 01, 2005, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
"On this Rock I will build my Assembly. The gates of Hell will not
prevail against her."

Real Baptists have a documented history. So do the Pseudo Baptists. The difference: Real Baptists have most of their history written with blood. Jesus said the world hated Him--they would also hate his Bride.

Jesus has kept His Bride safe in every generation. He has never left Her nor forsaken Her. Read about: The Bride, the Lamb's wife. Is She Baptistic? The documents are there--Gen. to Rev.--Book of Acts is Baptist History Brother. Now read: "History of the Inquisitions". You decide what we have been called.
Decide wisely.

Am I speaking in riddles?

Selah,

Bro. James

No, now you've abandoned the riddles. But you are still quite vague. So is that the only sign of a real Baptist, that they have a history written in blood? So do the Catholics in Japan. Many thousands were killed by the terrible persecutions of the 17th and 18th century. They were outlawed and stamped out except for a remnant called "Hidden Christians." That doesn't mean their doctrine was right or their churches were true churches of Jesus Christ.

So what I want to know is, what does a real Baptist believe, according to you? You cannot tell what a group is just because it has been persecuted.

 

[MikeinGhana]

There are churches in existence today that are more baptistic than those with the name Baptist above their door. Not many, but a few. Throughout history there has been a traceable group of believers that stood against the state run religion of the day. They were known by many different names, usually by the name of their most prominent leader. They were always known as separatists, independants, dissenters, etc. The key to knowing who they are, usually, has been their suffering persecution at the hand of the religious crowd. It started with Jesus and John the Baptist. Even today we have brethren around the world dying for their faith. We may not agree with them on every issue or minor doctrine, but, they are our brothers and sisters and a part of that true church that has existed through the years.

I did my doctoral disertation on the History of Baptist Missions tracing missions efforts through these groups as they fled persecution. It is quite a humbling study.

 

[Bro. James]

2Tim 3:12, "They that live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."

Does this mean that all who are persecuted are living godly in Christ Jesus? No.

Real Christians have suffered in every generation--Jesus said they would be hated just like Him.

The word for witness means: martyr.

Does that make all martyrs right? No. Joseph Smith Jr. was a martyr for the Mormons. He is either a true prophet or a false prophet. His followers claim to be Christians.

The Lord knows them that are His.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Bro. James]

What does a "real" Baptist believe?

Some terms: 1. sola scriptura, 2. sovereign grace, 3. election, 4. predestination, 5. scriptural immersion, 6. closed communion, 7. assembly sovereignty. 8. priesthood of believers

There are many more. Terms 2,3,4,5 narrow the field to a remnant the number of which is in the millions over the last two thousand years.

Selah,

Bro. James