Do we have to worship on Saturday not Sunday?

DHK argues that the very “existence of Christ on earth” at the START of His ministry was all that was needed to abolish all the Word all the LAW of God – being “breaking the Sabbath my fellow Jews for it is part of the LAW of God and I am here – so it is abolished!” says Christ in DHK’s model.

Of course D.L.Moody flatly denied the DHK model – and so Moody expressly argues against it.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS[/b], BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.[/b]
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER[/b]'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''


What do your traditions tell you on this subject?

 

John 5:
30 "" I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me

Christ denies that the words are His - that the actions are His and even that the "will" is merely His. The Words of Christ show complete identity with the Father - no God-vs-God dualism where keeping Christ's words/commandments is placed in contrast with keeping "God's commandments"..

Christ declares His actions to be in complete harmony with the Father's (God's commandments). So that walking as Christ walked (1John 2:4-6 means to do "exactly as the Father commands you to do".

John 14
29 ""Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.
30 ""I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.

Christ did not come to abolish God's commandments but to fulfill their requirements perfectly Matt 5:17-19.
He was born under the law and fulfilled it perfectly - without deviation Gal 4:4 and in that condtion He was without sin - no taint
of rebellion against the Father's word/will/commands/laws - no sin at all (2Cor 5:21)

John 14:15 "" If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Christ upheld the pre-cross commandments and showed that obedience was a sign of "love". Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 revealing
the Law of Love - showed God's saints that Love for God - is what God calls for. And Christ showed that Love for God results
in obedience - not attacking the pre-cross commandments of God.

 

Bible Scholars that have got it all wrong.

 

Commentary on Romans 14:

1 [14:1-15:6] Since Christ spells termination of the law, which included observance of specific days and festivals as well as dietary instruction, the jettisoning of long-practiced customs was traumatic for many Christians brought up under the Mosaic code. Although Paul acknowledges that in principle no food is a source of moral contamination (Romans 14:14), he recommends that the consciences of Christians who are scrupulous in this regard be respected by other Christians (Romans 14:21). On the other hand, those who have scruples are not to sit in judgment on those who know that the gospel has liberated them from such ordinances (Romans 14:10). See 1 Cor 8; 10.

2 [5] Since the problem to be overcome was humanity's perverted mind or judgment (Romans 1:28), Paul indicates that the mind of the Christian is now able to function with appropriate discrimination (cf Romans 12:2).

3 [8] The Lord: Jesus, our Master. The same Greek word, kyrios, was applied to both rulers and holders of slaves. Throughout the Letter to the Romans Paul emphasizes God's total claim on the believer; see the note on Romans 1:1.

4 [19] some manuscripts, versions, and church Fathers read, "We then pursue . . ."; cf Romans 5:1.

5 [23] Whatever is not from faith is sin: Paul does not mean that all the actions of unbelievers are sinful. He addresses himself to the question of intracommunity living. Sin in the singular is the dreadful power described in Romans 5:12-14.

 

In Romans 14 Paul does NOT argue that God's word is "terminated" as some imagine - as Inquiring mind imagines.

In Rom 3:31 Paul says "DO we then make VOID the law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"!!

In Romans 2:11-13 Paul argues "it is not the hearers but the DOERS of the LAw that WILL BE justified".

In Romans 7 Paul argues "I AGREE with the Law that it is holy just and good.. spiritually understood".

In Romans 14 Paul makes NO ARGUMENT of the form "THIS has now been abolished to stop keeping it".

OBviously.

Instead he argues that Those who DO OBSERVE ONE of the Lev 23 list of feast days ABOVE another AND ALSO those who OBSERVE them ALL -- are BOTH doing this "unto the Lord".

Now "ABOLISHED and TERMINATED" language is found in Rom 14.

 

Second Example given in Romans 14 by Paul.

In this case - one person regards (esteems so as to observe) One day ABOVE another - while another brother regards (esteems so as to Observe) EVERY day.

To see a list of “ALL” the days that were to be observed – turn to Lev 23.

To see a list of THREE out of that set that were actually required of all – see Exodus 23.

Some may observe ALL the Lev 23 annual feast days – or some may have chosen to honor only the 3 mandatory ones listed in Exodus 23. But after the end of all animal sacrifices (Heb 10) with the death of Christ. The shadows ceased to be mandatory. Paul points this out in general in Col 2 and then specifically for Passover in 1Cor 5 “Christ our Passover has been slain” 1Cor 5.

#1. Neither of these is the case of "observing NO day" - or "regarding NO day". (not withstanding the hopes of many today who might wish that such was the case).

#2. There is no OT command to "observe every day".

#3. There is no mention at all of the 7th day Sabbath of Creation week - of the 4th commandment.

#4. BOTH practices (and both Examples) are being defended in Romans 14.

#5 EVEN if you Inject God's own Seventh-day Sabbath INTO the Romans 14 text - that would mean that keeping the 10 commandments IS allowed such that the arguments made AGAINST Sabbath Keeping (saying that it places us under the law) are void. Because if such arguments were true - you could not "defend" such an outcome. You could not argue "For those who want to be back under the law - let them believe it - its ok - they do so for the Lord". That is extreme opposite of the Galations 5 position and you end up with an internally - self-conflicted - text.

#6. The NT issue defined: It is the Annual feast days - the annual Sabbaths. One person observes ONE of them above the other - while another "observes Every day" - all of them.

Paul is arguing that BOTH practices are valid, in fact Paul Himself observed all of them as we find in Acts 21, 23, and 24.

And as Paul says of those observing these feast days –

Every commentary found so far – acknowledges that these are the Lev 23 feastival days and that “esteem” is in fact a reference to “OBSERVING” them.

Amplified Bible vs 6
6He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

English Standard Bible – vs 6
6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.[/quote]

 

JFB
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=014

5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day--The supplement "alike" should be omitted, as injuring the sense.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind--be guided in such matters by conscientious conviction.

Notice there is no "HE who does not observe a day - is not doing so For the Lord".

And the term “Observe” is used to show “in accord with the command of God”. In Matt 28:20 Christ the Creator tells His followers to “Go into all the World and make disciples of ALL nations…teaching them to Observe All that I Commanded you”.

Some will argue that to value and “esteem” one day above another in vs 5 – results in OBSERVING the day in vs 6. But to Value and Esteem ALL days (of the Lev 23 list) results in OBSERVING NONE!


Vs 5 "One esteems one day ABOVE another while another esteems ALL" vs 6 "SO The one who OBSERVES the day OBSERVES it for the Lord"!!

We can not split these verses into separate topics. It is all one point.

As we see in vs 5 they place value on (esteems) either ONE day or on ALL days in the Lev 23 list of days to be Observed. The one who places value only on ONE day is NOT observing ALL the days in the list!!

There is no such thing as a limited choice such that "One can only OBSERVE ONE of the Lev 23 days or NONE of them" as many suggest. They insert a false either-or fallacy to try to bend the text to their usages.

They are twisting the SAME word in Vs 5 from "VALUE and ESTEEM" in the case of ONE day -- to "NOT value and NOT ESTEEM" in the case of ALL days in the Lev 23 list. So that valuing/esteeming ONE results in OBSERVING one - but value and esteem for ALL days in the Lev 23 list results in observe none!!!

That form of logic twisting inserted INTO the text has to be done from previous bias - it is not IN the text!


The issue in vs 5 and 6 is WHICH of the Lev 23 feast days you choose to observe,, either ALL or some above others. The ‘esteem NONE” option is not there!

 

You are misquoted and reading again!

Read what I supplied:

Bob Ryan, as Christ said to Peter when Peter did not understand fully the full plan of God, so I say to you: SATAN GET BEHIND ME!

Go tell you Satan induced Ellen G White lies somewhere else.

 

Inquiring Mind,

First of all, I would imagine that you, in whatever denomination you are in, read various books by various authors. And I would not say to you for instance, "Go tell your Satan induced Chuck Swindoll lies somewhere else". (or whoever's books you happen to read). That's a little on the ridiculous side. I would imagine Bob has given you plenty of Biblical support for what he believes.


What I am about to say to you is APOSTLE PAUL INDUCED... okay? Read it.

Secondly, you claim that Christ means termination of the Law. What IS sin? Sin is transgression of the Law:

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

QUESTION: are we supposed to now live in sin (transgression of the Law) because of Christ?

Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

So are you, Inquiring mind, telling us we SHOULD SIN (transgress the Law) because we are under grace?

Are you saying we should now be ALIVE TO SIN? instead of what the Bible says which is to be DEAD to sin?

I hate to tell you this but you cannot have it both ways.

Claudia

 

Sadly - as in your every post on this thread - you "supplied nothing" but vitriol, vaccuous assertion and Bible-text avoidance.

Contrast that to the rich text and Bible-scholar facts provided in my post above.

The glaring difference is apparent to even the most casual reader.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Where are the great Christian Bible teachers - like D.L Moody these days?

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

Fundamental Baptist Institute​

http://www.fbinstitute.com/​

presents​

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY THE​

​

​

​

DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:​

Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.​

The Fourth Commandment​

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy[/b]. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [b]for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.[/b]​

THERE HAS BEEN an [b]awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day[/b], and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

[b]I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

.​

HOW TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH​

"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.[/b]
[/quote]
…

[b]Mr. Gladstone recently told a friend that the secret of his long life is that amid all the pressure of public cares he never forgot the Sabbath, with its rest for the body and the soul.
·
When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday,
…
Make the Sabbath a day of religious activity. First of all, of course, is attendance at public worship. "There is a discrepancy," says John McNeill, "between our creed about the Sabbath day and our actual conduct. In many families, at ten o'clock on the Sabbath, attendance at church is still an open question. There is no open question on Monday morning- 'John, will you go to work today.'"

…
Someone has said that without the Sabbath, the Church of Christ could not, as a visible organization, exist on earth.
…
Parents, if you want your children to grow up and honor you, have them honor the Sabbath day.

.​

SABBATH DESECRATION​

Men seem to think they have a right to change the holy day into a holiday. The young have more temptations to break the Sabbath than we had forty years ago.[/b]

.​

PUNISHMENT OR BLESSING?​

No nation has ever prospered that has trampled the Sabbath in the dust. Show me a nation that has done this and I will show you a nation that has got in it the seeds of ruin and decay. I believe that Sabbath desecration will carry a nation down quicker than anything else. Adam brought marriage and the Sabbath with him out of Eden, and neither can be disregarded without suffering. When the children of Israel went into the Promised Land, God told them to let their land rest every seven years, and He would give them as much in six years as in seven. For four hundred and ninety years they disregarded that law. But mark you, Nebuchadnezzar came and took them off into Babylon, and kept them seventy years in captivity, and the land had its seventy sabbaths of rest. Seven times seventy is four hundred and ninety. So they did not gain much by breaking this law. You can give God His day, or He will take it.

On the other hand, honoring the fourth commandment brings blessing:
"If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." (Isaiah 58:13-14)
…

? Hasn't the time come to call a halt if men want power with God? Let men call you narrow and bigoted, but be man enough to stand by God's law, and you will have power and blessing. That is the kind of Christianity we want just now in this country. [/b]Any man can go with the crowd, but we want men who will go against the current.

Sabbath-breaker, are you ready to step into the scales?



​

 

Ok - you could easily argue that we can not expect the non-Sabbath keeping Christians of today to have the same clarity on the topic of the 4th commandment as D.L. Moody had much less the clarity of those like the Seventh-day Baptists and Seventh-day Adventists.

Ok - well then what about having the same Clarity that D.L. Moody had on the Ten Commandments in general??

​

​

 

Here follows the remainder of D.L. Moody's message on the entire Ten Commandments as a "topic" before he went into each commandment specifically

 

You have to admit - D.L. Moody was a great Bible based evangelist -- and he makes a good case for listening to God's Word in the posts above.

 

If I may sum up:

BR:,
"Christ the Creator's Sabbath... " never considering, never admitting, never allowing Christ the SAVIOUR's Sabbath.

DHK:
Any calendar, all over the world, the First Day is Resurrection Day... refusing to investigate whether or not by manipulation of the Scriptures.

Same, every time!

 

Quoting BR:
"Now face these Ten Commandments honestly and prayerfully. See if your life is right, and if you are treating God fairly."

Rather look up to Jesus, honestly and prayerfully. See if your life is right, and if you are treating God fairly."

 

The rich young man was never further from Jesus, salvation or the Kingdom of God as when he said: These things I've been doing all my life!

 

How many times now, BobRyan, have you so misfitted Moody? Still pale-faced ... I'm red for you.

 

Quoting BR:
"You have to admit - D.L. Moody was a great Bible based evangelist -- and he makes a good case for listening to God's Word in the posts above."

This same Moody writes in this very article: "I have an index of two thousand five hundred sermons preached by Spurgeon, and not one of them selects its text from the first seventeen verses of Exodus 20. The people must be made to understand that the Ten Commandments are still binding, and that there is a penalty attached to their violation. We do not want a gospel of mere sentiment. The Sermon on the Mount did not blot out the Ten Commandments."

Here Moody actually accuses Spurgeon of preaching "a gospel of mere sentiment", and that he taught that the Sermon on the Mount blotted out the Ten Commandments --- both of which accusations are most unbecoming a great Bible based evangelist who makes a good case for listening to God's Word!

How remarkable Spurgeon so exalted Jesus the Lord Saviour and led so many souls to Him - and to keeping the Commandments of God - without once giving a sermon based on Exodus 20:1-17!

 

Still waiting for Bob Ryan to address Acts 15. If the Apostles were not lead by the Holy Spirit to command the Gentile Church to keep the sabbath, then why do you command the Gentile Church to keep the sabbath?