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Featured Do you recognise the differences between reformed/calvinist/Hyper?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, May 15, 2013.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    In order to be accurate in assessing which ones of us who hold to limited atonement are hyper or not, would be in the discussion involving the nature/timing/order of the decrees of God...

    NOT if limited/unlimited!
     
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Non-Calvinists (they cringe when called Arminians) don't know what they are talking about when they lump classical Calvinists into the same mold as classical Hyper-Calvinists. Historical theology is not on their radar usually.
     
  3. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    The difference between five-point traditional Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism boils down to essentially this:

    Hyper-Calvinists (Hardshellers) hold that God says the elect whether they ever hear the gospel or not.

    Traditional Calvinists hold that it pleased God to save through the "foolishness of preaching" of the gospel.

    Both views agree on the extent of the atonement.
     
  4. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  5. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Rippon, you are welcome to call ME whatever you wish.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Then what about Sola Gratia?
     
  8. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    That is a good explanation of the gap between the two. Reformed is a more general term that can be applied to the various stages we have gone through from the Book of Acts until today. One must ask to start with, "reformed from what?"

    I thought this was a good short article about the concept of reformed.

    Reformed: A Definition
    Tim Challies
    04/22/04
    11
    A reader posed the question this morning of what it means to be a Reformed Christian. His (or her) question made me realize that though I am Reformed in theology and have been for many years, I do not have a definition of Reformed to answer the question. So I thought today I would post a definition of what it means to be Reformed.

    First, it is important to note that because the Reformed tradition arose from the Protestant Reformation, the term “Reformed” is usually defined in comparison to something else. By affirming Reformed theology you are implicitly denying other theologies, such as Catholic theology (which Reformed theology rose in opposition to) and Arminian theology (which later rose in opposition to Reformed theology). I doubt any sentence in the history of the English language has used the word “theology” as much as my previous sentence. My English professors must be shedding a tear on my behalf.

    Let’s start with some definitions. Christendom refers to all religions that are based at least partially on the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible. Christendom is separated into four main divisions: Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant and Cults. Protestantism is generally divided into two camps: Arminian and Reformed. The vast majority of Protestants hold to Arminian doctrine. We will concern ourselves today with minority who consider themselves Reformed.

    A good starting place for any research these days is the Web and a quick search for “reformed” turned up the following definitions that pertain to theology:

    A term used to refer to a tradition of theology which draws inspiration from the writings of John Calvin (1510-64) and his successors (see pp. 68-72). The term is generally used in preference to “Calvinist.”
    Referring to the Reformation, it’s theology, and/or those subscribing to it. Also used to differentiate a,) Calvinism from Lutheranism, or b.) Continental European Calvinism from Scottish Calvinism, aka Presbyterianism.
    Those are both concise definitions but ones that do not capture the full sense of the word.

    A far better and more complete definition is found at Five Solas. There Professor Byron Curtis, a professor at Geneva College breaks the definition into four parts. To be Reformed is:

    To confess the consensus of the five first centuries of the church:
    Classic theism: One omnipotent, benevolent God, distinct from creation.
    Nicene and Chalcedonian Trinitarianism: one God in three eternally existent persons, equal in power and glory.
    Christ, the God-Man, the one mediator between God & the human race, incarnate, crucified, resurrected, ascended, & coming again.
    Humanity created in the image of God, yet tragically fallen & profoundly in need of restoration to God through Christ.
    The Visible Church: the community of the redeemed, indwelt y the Holy Spirit; the mystical body of Christ on earth.
    The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
    The Sacraments: visible signs and seals of the grace of God, ministering Christ’s love to us in our deep need.
    The Christian life: characterized by the prime theological virtues of faith, hope, and love.
    It would be correct to say that this is a statement of the Protestant faith more than it is a statement of the Reformed faith. From this list we see that Reformed Christians adhere to all the foundational beliefs taught in the Bible. These beliefs were the foundation of the early church and are based on the teachings of the Bible as interpreted by the apostles and early church fathers. Many of these beliefs were changed or lost as the Catholic Church grew in power and authority from the fifth century onwards. Throughout history there were pockets of non-Catholic believers who held to many or all of these points of doctrine, but they were largely lost until the time of the Reformation.

    To confess the four solas:
    The authority of Scripture: sola scriptura (Scripture alone)
    the basis of salvation: Sola Gratia (Grace alone)
    the means of salvation: Sola Fide (Faith alone)
    the merit of salvation: Solus Christus (Christ alone)
    Again, these form the basis for Protestantism as much as they do for the Reformed tradition. These are the principles that drove the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century and separated it from the Roman Catholic Church. These four points of doctrine are based entirely on the Bible and were the theological driving force behind the newly formed Protestant movement.

    To confess the distinctives of the Reformed faith:
    In salvation: monergism not synergism. God alone saves. Such monergism implies T.U.L.I.P., the Five Points of Calvinism from the Synod of Dordt:
    T = Total Depravity U = Unconditional Election L = Limited Atonement, or, better, Particular Redemption I = Irresistible Grace P = Perseverence and Preservation of the Saints
    These five distinct points of doctrine are also known as the five points of Calvinism as they were first articulated by John Calvin after the Reformation was in full-swing. They are based entirely on the Bible. When people speak of being Reformed these five points of doctrine are most often what they are referring to. Most evangelical (non-Reformed) churches do not hold to all of these points. Some hold to two or three (and occasionally even four), but most reject them in favor of Arminian theology. For a more in-depth look at what constitutes Reformed vs Arminian theology, see my four part article which begins here.

    Other Reformed Distinctives:
    Professor Curtis goes on to list other points of doctrine he believes are Reformed distinctives. They include: The Regulative Principle of Worship (which I have written about here), Covenant theology (The Church is the New Israel - this generally means infants are baptized rather than believers) and Life is religion (Christians have neither jobs nor careers; they have vocations (callings)). I would not consider adherence to these principles necessary to consider oneself Reformed and I suspect the majority of Reformed Christians would agree with me.

    Finally: in everything, Soli Deo Gloria - to God alone be the glory in all things.
    This is, once more, something all Christians would claim, either explicitly or implicitly. In all areas of life we are to give glory to God.

    So what does this all mean? To be Reformed is to adhere to the purist teachings of the Bible - to affirm the doctrine taught by Jesus, Paul and the apostles. Scripture is considered the ultimate authority in matters of life and faith and all Reformed doctrine is founded on the Bible. I am convinced that Reformed doctrine is nothing more than Biblical Christianity. Were it not for human sin we would have to make no distinction between them.

    Back to my comments, in reality, we are the ones that created the need for reform. The beginning church in Acts had no need to be reformed.
     
  9. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    No, Limited atonement is one of the minimums to even call one a Calvinist. "Hyper" is to take something to the extreme. Limited atonement is one of the basic beliefs of a Calvinist, and cannot be referred to has hyper.

    "hyper" anything is taking it to the extreme. God will supply all my needs, so I stay home and don't work. No, God has supplied a job for to work which will supply my needs. Hyper is taking something to an unbiblical extreme.

    we cannot call something "hyper" just because we don't agree with it. And we must not use "hyper" just to make something you disagree with sound bad.
     
  10. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I agree with you Jbh, "limited atonement" is an essential to be of the calvinist persuasion.....in my mind it is the position of of (the word escapes me at the moment) but "double predestination is what I have in mind as being more of the "hyper" variety.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    And Hyper Hardline Restrictivists like you hold that all who have not heard the gospel are going to hell.

    If memory serves me right you've even stated that Gentiles under the old covenant went to hell, or something along those lines. Jn 3:8 simply doesn't sink in with you, does it?
     
    #51 kyredneck, May 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2013
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    The old enemy, Satan, muddied the waters by erasing the distinction between the eternal consequences for all the elect of all time, of Christ's finished work at the cross and the temporal demands of the gospel on those of God's elect who hear it.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  14. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Here is what you were replying to:
    I meant to say save the elect, etc.

    Is that not the position of Hyper-Calvinists, Hardshellers, Primitive Baptists?

    Regarding my position on the fate of those who never hear the gospel, I must rely on the words of Jesus:
    I take no pleasure from that, but I don't have much wiggle room with that verse.

    What is your view of the question?

    I do recognize that my view does raise another question: If those who never hear the gospel are still condemned, what is the basis for their condemnation? How can they be punished for rejecting Jesus as Lord if they never heard of Him nor the gospel?
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    yes, for did the Lord actively determine as His first act decreed to have the saved go to ehaven /lost to hell by His determination, or did he have the fall occur, and determined to save his elect actively, while passing over those not saved?
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The elect will somehow hear and receive the message of Christ and be saved, for there must still be a receiving of Christ thru faith in order to get saved by grace of God, not accounting for infants/children/handicaped, who to me are under a "special election" of God!
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How about trusting the Judge of the whole earth to do what is right, and also in God soveregn means to make sure all the elect somehow someway will receive the Message and receive him thru faith?
     
  18. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Yeshua1, you know that I am not in agreement with you on doctrine and theological position. I was simply agreeing with JBH, that limited atonement is a cornerstone of (calvinists, reformed, DoG) position. It, is not in my estimation and "hyper" aspect of that position. I don't know if that answers you, but it is all I have. :)
     
  19. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    well, either you have painted God into a corner, or He has painted Himself into a corner, because the Bible says "for it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment", remember ?
    so if God makes receiving Christ as Savior as an ADDITIONAL requirement to the blood of Christ for the elect to be eternally redeemed/saved, then:

    (1) there were NO ELECT prior to the cross because there was no gospel to hear which would inform the sinner that he must receive Christ as Savior;
    (2) there were NO ELECT outside of the nation of Israel because they did not have the prophets foretelling of a Savior and the God-man did not walk outside the lands of Israel and did not choose apostles outside of Jews nor spoke to non-Jews or non-residents of the country as Samaritans;
    (3) as a matter of fact there was NO ONE redeemed until the Pentecost when the apostles started to preach the gospel;
    (4) there was a LULL in the redemption of God's elect because Acts indicates the apostles took a "sabbatical" from the mandate they received at Mt. Olivet so God had to send a fiery, well-educated, religious zealot named Saul to kinda prick their contented butts;
    (5) God, who in 7 days created everything we see in what we call outer space, and all the hills and mountains and valleys and continents and nations and countries and argumentative Baptists suddenly turned dunce in the most important job He took on, which cost His Son His blood, and that is the redemption of sinners because He suddenly relies on human beings with their idiosyncracies and bullheadedness and inability to agree on doctrine and total inability to be everywhere at all time to reach all He wants reached. My, my, what a flop.

    Is there any Scripture in the Bible you know of that says, or even indicates, that Christ or God or any of the apostles or prophets will preach to those who died and are already in hell (remember, it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment) so they can have a chance to get outta there and receive Christ as Savior ?



    scripture on that, please.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
    John 20:31 esv

    bible very clear, whoever receives jesus thru faith has etrnal life residing in them, those who do not have wrath of God abiding on them still!
     
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