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Featured Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Oct 28, 2021.

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  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

    And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

    Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

    I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

    2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    Click to expand...
    Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

    Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

    Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:
    I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

    I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

    However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

    This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
     
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  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Agreed and well-said.
     
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  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    @Brightfame52,
    I greatly enjoy and agree with many of your posts, but I have to take issue with you here.
    The saved are those who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' Not, 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ because you are saved.' Justification from Eternity was the view of John Gill and others, but it is not correct. Election from eternity is absolutely true, but it is not the same thing.
    All people, including the elect, are under the wrath of God until they come to faith (Isaiah 12:1-3). The elect are, by nature, objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).
    That they will inevitably come to faith and salvation is absolutely true, but they are not saved until they do so. The sinner's warrant to come to Christ is not that he thinks he is elect, but because he is a sinner and Christ came into the world to save such (1 Timothy 1:15).
     
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    People cannot stand to give God the glory in salvation. They have to steal and share some of it with their carnal mind by turning "whoever believes has eternal life" into a condition for the self-righteous to meet instead of leaving it as a characteristic of those whom God saves.
     
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  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    If the elect are naturally by nature under Gods wrath, how do they trust in the lord for salvation ? Aren't they spiritually dead and lost. A person cant believe on Christ while they are dead my friend, faith is a fruit of the Spirit, a consequence of being born of the Spirit. so yes if one believes on the lord they will be saved, not they believe o the lord and get saved. Big difference. However understand this thread is about unconditional election. BTW Nowhere in Eph 2:3 does it say the elect are under wrath. Remember Christ has propitiated God on behalf of His elect, so its impossible for them to be under Gods wrath, thats a contradiction.
     
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  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I agree with all that, my friend. Have another read of my post, If I've not been clear, I apologize.
    Let me write the two texts I referenced out in full.
    Isaiah 12:1-3. 'And in that day you shall say, " O LORD, I will praise you; though You were angry with Me, Your anger is turned away and You comfort me. Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; for YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song; He has also become my salvation."
    Therefore with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation.'

    Ephesians 2:3. '......Among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.'

    It is not impossible for someone to be angry with someone, yet be intending to be reconciled with him. I don't know if you are a parent, but if so, you might have sent your child to his room for some misbehaviour. You fully intend to be reconciled with him, but not until he repents and apologizes. So God is angry with sinners (Psalms 7:11) - all of them. With His elect, He has already devised that He will be reconciled with them through the blood of Christ, but not until they are united to Christ by faith. That is why Paul writes, 'Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ' (Romans 5:1). that this faith and repentance is the gift of God is not at issue between us. My only problem is with Justification from Eternity, which you seem to be implying. If I am wrong about that, please let me know and I will apologize and withdraw my criticism.
     
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  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    ”Justification from Eternity, which you seem to be implying.”

    Oh, they aren’t implying it.
     
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  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This is where John Gill got accused of being Hyper Cal, due to seeming to support eternal Justification!
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Gillites and Fullerites

    Was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world or not?:

    6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.
    8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
    10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5

    'Our faith', let alone 'our faith alone', had zilch to do our eternal justification from eternity.
     
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  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Mans portion is determined by the will of God, thus Paul says, " The purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth," ( Romans 9:11 ). Election is not based on any thing foreseen in the creature, but of the will of the God exclusively, and for His pleasure. Rev 4:11

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Unconditional Election of some was for His Pleasure !
     
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  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The elect have been reconciled to God friend, by the death of Christ Rom 5:10, Gods wrath has been propitiated by the death of Christ for the elect, so how can they be under Gods wrath ? Be careful with that sir because that sentiment discredits the Cross and its accomplishment.
     
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  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    [QUOTE="kyredneck, post: 2741747, member: 9690]'being now justified by his blood',[/QUOTE]
    Just so. Not 'being justified from eternity by His blood.'
     
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  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Just read the texts, brother. Moreover, God is 'of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look upon wickedness.' Just as an earthly father does (should) not accept wickedness in his children, so God will not accept wickedness in His sons and daughters. They are elect from eternity, but justified when they believe.
    As for Romans 5:10, it comes after Romans 5:9 as well as Romans 5:1. See my reply to @kyredneck above. The elect are united to Christ by faith (e.g. Ephesians 1:13).

    I am trying to avoid getting involved in long discussions here as I find they lead to strife, so I will leave it there unless you want specifically to address some of the texts I have quoted.
     
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  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You the one disregarding scripture. Gods elect are reconciled to God while being enemies by the death of Christ. Hes sees no wickedness and evil on them, that would be a discredit to Christs death that took away their sins, purged them away. When God beholds His unregenerate elect, He sees them washed in Christs blood and clothed in His righteousness, accepted in the beloved. Num 23:21
    He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.
     
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  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as unconditional election. It has always been and always will be conditional.
    MB
     
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    While I agree somewhat with the underlined, I'd have to say that I also agree with the fact that He chose them in Christ from the foundation of the world...
    To me, that makes them saved at that point, as that is when their names were written ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).

    The sinner's warrant ( justification for an action ) is the fact that they are "of God" per John 8:43-47 and they are His elect...even though they have yet to realize it.
    That's why I'll side with Gill if that is what he said about a person being saved before they were born, because that is what I see in the Scriptures when I read them for myself.

    I see nowhere that God's people were under His wrath; only that they were, by nature, the children of wrath...
    That is, before they were born again, they were exactly the same in their minds and in their hearts as those that the Lord never wrote in the Book of Life.

    According to John 3:36, the believer evidences that they have eternal life because they believe...
    the unbeliever evidences that they are under the wrath of God by their unbelief, and according to John 1:18, the unbeliever is condemned already.
    IMO, God's wrath was never towards His children, or they would never have believed...

    In other words, His wrath towards someone is absolute, and includes their reprobation.
     
    #16 Dave G, Oct 30, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I also see that justification was not actually accomplished until the cross, but was already viewed by the Lord as having been "a done deal" for His elect:

    " Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," ( 1 Peter 1:20 ).
    and:
    " And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." ( Revelation 13:8 ).
    as well as:
    " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."
    ( Romans 5:8-10 ).

    ...are both in view.

    The mission of His Son to save His people from their sins was planned and carried out and had no chance of not succeeding.
    That's why the Lord Jesus said, "It is finished", and, " I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." ( John 17:4 ).

    That work was always in view from the start, and the results were always in view, from the start.
    His works were finished from the foundation of the world ( Hebrews 4:3 ).
    What works?
    All of them.
    Justification from the foundation of the world had to be a sure thing, or the Lord could have never told David through Nathan:

    " And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." (2 Samuel 12:13).

    How could Nathan tell David that his sin was put away, when the Lord Jesus had yet to be crucified?
    Sin cannot be put away but by a worthy blood sacrifice, and the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin ( Hebrews 10:4 ).
    Therefore, it was put away in God's eyes by the death of His Son...a sure thing that had yet to be carried out. :)

    Even so, I'll post no more about it in this thread, because as @Brightfame52 has pointed out, this is one is about unconditional election.
     
    #17 Dave G, Oct 30, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Gods Glory is manifested in Unconditional Sovereign Election and Reprobation. Election is a Matter of absolute Mercy Rom 9:11-15

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    God is not obligated to have mercy on any one of us, He would have been just to punish eternally everyone for their sins against Him.

    However He purposed for His own Glory to have Mercy on only some, a remnant of mankind. Moses had asked God to show him His Glory, and the Lord answred Ex 33:18,19

    18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

    19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

    See that, God in responding to Moses said He will proclaim HIS NAME ! And in that proclamation we have the sacred words " and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

    The Glory of the Lord is bound up in His Sovereign Prerogative to be merciful and gracious to whomever He pleases understanding that He can withhold the same to whomever He pleases.

    Ps 115:3

    3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
     
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  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You always saying something against scripture.
     
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  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing in the word of God as unconditional election. At best that notion is an interpertation.
     
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