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Featured Does a Multitude of Modern English Bible Versions Promote a Violation of 1 Cor 1:10

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by JD731, Nov 6, 2023.

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  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The improper response from KJV-only advocates seem to be to use carnal smear tactics and to bear false witness against believers who have the Holy Spirit of truth indwelling them.

    KJV-only advocates do not know perfectly the hearts and minds of the believing Bible scholars that translate the word of God into present-day English, and they unsoundly and incorrectly accuse them of not being believers. On the other hand, KJV-only advocates do not even ask if the Church of England makers of the KJV who believed the Church of England's false doctrine of baptismal regeneration were true believers.

    Part of the KJV-only response is to assume unproven premises by use of fallacies such as begging the question and special pleading.
     
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  2. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I was careful to include a prayer that Paul wrote in Ephesians that came from God to be included in his tesimony to us. Therefore, it is truly from the heart of God as well as from the heart of the great apostle. Therefore, I conclude that God is not trying to hide his truths from his church, the only conclusion I can make from reading the things some of the you guys write, but only asks us to meet certain conditions in order to know them. Why is that a smear tactic against you? Why do you consider that believing the words I read is bearing false witness.

    First of all, men are not saved from the penalty of their sins by understanding and believing the mysteries of God, they are saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ and they do not need a Bible for that, only a preacher, but the point is that the mysteries of God that comes to saved men is by revelation of the Spirit and is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height in the knowledge of him. Isn't that what you desire?

    These Bible translations never open up these things. Men deny these mysteries and show they know nothing about them every day on this forum. These are the guys who promote these many different English translations. They are not a help in things that must have the element of revelation in order to know them.
     
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    That may be your subjective, biased opinion, but that does not demonstrate it to be true.
     
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  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Your question is off target since you do not seem to have read carefully.

    It should have been very clear from the statement that I quoted from your post that I was directly referring to your unproven accusation against Bible scholars [such as the NKJV translators] who translated the Scriptures into present-day English.

    Your negative, unproven accusations against English Bible translators whom you in effect accused of not being saved or indwelt by the Holy Spirit could soundly be regarded as carnal smear tactics.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Only the ignorant claim technical meanings held by insiders make general meanings found in dictionaries and everyday usage invalid.

    Versions of the Bible
    Please help support the mission of New Advent and get the full contents of this website as an instant download. Includes the Catholic Encyclopedia, Church Fathers, Summa, Bible and more — all for only $19.99...

    Synopsis
    • GREEK: Septuagint; Aquila; Theodotion; Symmachus; other versions.
    • VERSIONS FROM THE SEPTUAGINT: Vetus Itala or Old Latin; Egyptian or Coptic (Bohairic, Sahidic, Akhmimic, and Fayûmic, i.e. Middle Egyptian or Bashmuric); Ethiopic and Amharic (Falasha, Galla); Gothic; Georgian or Grusian; Syriac; Slavic (Old Slavonic, Russian, Ruthenian, Polish, Czech or Bohemian, Slovak, Serbian or Illyrian, Croation, Bosnian, Dalmatian); Arabic; Armenian.
    • VERSIONS FROM THE HEBREW: Chaldaic; Syriac (Peschitto); Arabic (Carshuni); Persian; Samaritan Pentateuch; Vulgate; other Latin versions.
    • HEBREW VERSIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
    • VERSIONS FROM MIXED SOURCES: Italian; Spanish; Basque; Portuguese; French; German; Dutch and Flemish; Scandinavian (Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic); Finnish (Estonian, Laplandish); Hungarian; Celtic (Irish, Scottish, Breton or Armoric, Welsh or Cymric).
    • MISCELLANEOUS: Aleutian; Aniwa; Aneitumese; Battak; Benga; Bengali; Chinese; Gipsy or Romany; Hindu; Hindustani; Japanese; Javanese; Mexican; Modern Greek.
    • ENGLISH VERSIONS
     
  6. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    "Basically, a text-type or text-family refers to a grouping of manuscripts that share common readings or characteristics, distinguishing them from other text-types." -[Taken from p.70 of James White's book The King James Only Controversy]

    "In the classic formulation of Colwell, a text type could be defined as a 'group of manuscripts that agree more than 70 per cent of the time and is separated by a gap of about 10 per cent from its neighbors.' [Taken from p.6 of The Early Text Of The New Testament by Charles E. Hill & Michael J. Kruger]

    "In the process of examining sources to establish the true original Greek text of the New Testament, an interesting feature emerges. The differing readings tend to group themselves into 'families' or 'text-types' in accordance with the way the sources agree with each other. 'Agree' means that in numbers of passages where manuscript sources retain different readings, manuscripts of the same text-type will agree with each other in supporting the same readings, but they will differ from manuscripts of other families in the readings they support." [Taken from p. 56 of How To Choose A Bible Version by Robert L. Thomas]

    All of the above is rather elementary, but for some unenlightened ones it may be helpful.
     
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Does a Multitude of Modern English Bible Versions Promote a Violation of 1 Cor 1:10

    Nearly all the posters on this website has agreed, it seems to me, that they all speak the same things about not speaking the same things about the scriptures. It is just my opinion but I do not think that is what God had in mind when he commanded us all to speak the same things.

    God says to speak the same things and these guys go out and write their own words and get copyrights on them so the next translator has to speak different words. It is insane.

    ASV
    Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
    AMP
    But I urge you, believers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in full agreement in what you say, and that there be no divisions or factions among you, but that you be perfectly united in your way of thinking and in your judgment [about matters of the faith].
    AMPC
    But I urge and entreat you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in perfect harmony and full agreement in what you say, and that there be no dissensions or factions or divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in your common understanding and in your opinions and judgments.
    BRG
    Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
    CSB
    Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction.
    CEB
    Now I encourage you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ: Agree with each other and don’t be divided into rival groups. Instead, be restored with the same mind and the same purpose.
    CJB
    Nevertheless, brothers, I call on you in the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah to agree, all of you, in what you say, and not to let yourselves remain split into factions but be restored to having a common mind and a common purpose.
    CEV
    My dear friends, as a follower of our Lord Jesus Christ, I beg you to get along with each other. Don't take sides. Always try to agree in what you think.
    DARBY
    Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all say the same thing, and that there be not among you divisions; but that ye be perfectly united in the same mind and in the same opinion.
    DLNT
    Now I exhort you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all be speaking the same thing, and that there not be divisions among you, but that you be made-complete in the same mind and in the same purpose.
    DRA
    Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.
    ERV
    Brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, I beg all of you to agree with each other. You should not be divided into different groups. Be completely joined together again with the same kind of thinking and the same purpose.
    EHV
    Brothers, I am making an appeal to you using the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. I ask that you all express the same view and not have any divisions among you, but that you be joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
    ESV
    I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
    ESVUK
    I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgement.
    EXB
    I ·beg [urge; appeal to] you, brothers and sisters, ·by the name [or by the authority; or as followers] of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you agree with each other and not be ·split into groups [divided into factions]. I beg that you be ·completely joined together [fully united; or made complete] by having the same ·kind of thinking [L mind] and the same ·purpose [intention; conviction].
    GNV
    Now I beseech you, brethren, by the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak one thing, and that there be no dissensions among you: but be ye knit together in one mind, and in one judgment.
    GW
    Brothers and sisters, I encourage all of you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to agree with each other and not to split into opposing groups. I want you to be united in your understanding and opinions.
    GNT
    By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ I appeal to all of you, my friends, to agree in what you say, so that there will be no divisions among you. Be completely united, with only one thought and one purpose.
    HCSB
    Now I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction.
    ICB
    I beg you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. I beg that all of you agree with each other, so that you will not be divided into groups. I beg that you be completely joined together by having the same kind of thinking and the same purpose.
    ISV
    Brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus the Messiah, I urge all of you to be in agreement and not to have divisions among you, so that you may be perfectly united in your understanding and opinions.
    PHILLIPS
    Now I do beg you, my brothers, by all that Christ means to you, to speak with one voice, and not allow yourselves to be split up into parties. All together you should be achieving a unity in thought and judgment. For I know, from what some of Chloe’s people have told me that you are each making different claims—“I am one of Paul’s men,” says one; “I am one of Apollos’,” says another; or “I am one of Cephas’”; while someone else says, “I owe my faith to Christ alone.”
    JUB
    ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfect, joined together in the same understanding and in the same perception.

    LSB
    Now I exhort you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.
    LEB
    Now I exhort you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing and there not be divisions among you, and that you be made complete in the same mind and with the same purpose.
     
  8. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    God has not spoken any exclusive only claims for only one English Bible translation--the KJV. God has not said that it was acceptable to have multiple varying English Bibles before 1611 but not after 1611. God has not spoken your misleading and sometimes non-true accusations against other English Bibles.

    God Himself did not speak exactly the same words in each of the four Gospels so that may indicate that you are misunderstanding, misinterpreting, and misapplying 1 Corinthians 1:10.

    Six individual words [“that proceedeth out of the mouth of God”] spoken by Jesus as found in Matthew 4:4 are not preserved, presented, or spoken in Luke 4:4. The Holy Spirit of God through Luke did not speak all the same exact words at Luke 4:4 as the Holy Spirit of God through Matthew spoke at Matthew 4:4. Is this fact a hint or indication that your interpretation of 1 Corinthains 1:10 could be incorrect?

    KJV defender Bruce Lackey observed: “Let us not condemn something simply because it is a paraphrase; in so doing, we would have to condemn certain portions of the New Testament” (Can You Trust Your Bible, p. 40). Concerning those NT portions, Bruce Lackey noted: “Occasionally, an Old Testament portion will be paraphrased, or given a free rendering, or only certain portions will be used” (p. 39). Bruce Lackey asserted: “We must see from the New Testament usage that God’s truth may be expressed in more than one set of words” (p. 14).
     
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  9. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Try to begin reading 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2 from the standpoint of God ordained words in his desire to instruct his church in the mystery that is the subject of chapter 2 and is the wisdom of God. He does it in the manner that he has chosen in order to get glory from men. He actually says that. in chapter 2. God has taken these first two chapters and has established his ways in the simplicity of words.

    In chapter 1 he speaks of the testimony of Jesus Christ our Lord. This chapter is about the manner in which we are saved. It is so simple that it is most often rejected by scholarly men. They call it foolishness because it is obtained through preaching. There is a whole movement that takes the approach that salvation cannot come to any man and every man that will humbly come only trusting what Jesus has done at the cross for sinners. I would like to quote you some verses from chapter 1.

    1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
    5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
    6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed (made sure) in you:
    7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
    1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    If Jesus Christ has done every thing and the sinner only needs to receive the preaching, then God gets all the glory and sinners get his salvation.

    In chapter two, the testimony of God is any thing but simple. The men of the world who approaches God through their own wisdom cannot know these things because they are hidden, they are a mystery.

    1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

    1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
    3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
    5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
    6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world <165>, nor of the princes of this world <165>, that come to nought:
    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world <165> unto our glory:
    8 Which none of the princes of this world <165> knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    So now you have all three members of the Godhead involved with confirming his words, along with the preacher and the Spirit's own chosen words.

    There is much more to say about this passage but Paul could not reveal the mystery of God to these carnal Corinthians because of the divisions and immaturity and it was six years later that he revealed it to the Ephesians. Here is the mystery of this age <165> in a verse.

    Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world <165> hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    In the beginning of this age the purpose of God to form his church was hidden but was revealed to Paul who made it known to us through his epistles. The fellowship was both Jews and gentiles in the body of Jesus Christ with equal standing as sons of God.

    The reasons often given for multiplied new translations and paraphrases is so we can better understand the scriptures. That is not how God makes his mysteries known.

    Read and meditate on 1 Corinthians 1 and 2. See if you can see any of this to be true. Ask yourself, if it is the Spirit who enlightens the mind through the word of God, why does he need a hundred different versions of the word of God?
     
  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Your response does not answer nor refute the sound points that I presented.

    Are you possibly condemning any of the reasons for the making of a new English translation in 1611 when the word of God had already been translated into English many years earlier?

    The 1611 KJV was one of the multiplied new translations and paraphrases in 1611. Are you suggesting that it should not have been made?

    Your strawman that suggests someone supposedly claims that they "need a hundred different versions" is pointless.
     
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  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    You think this because you and I do not agree that you are approaching the scriptures through human wisdom. You quote thosands of men and rarely quote the scriptures to make your points.

    There are pivot points in history as God advances his purpose of reedeeming men and building his church. It is evident that God's direction is to the west because God knew that they would believe it. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles did not go south, north, or east, he went west. The missionary activity to the world has been from the west and God has given his testimony in the langauge of those who will receive it, but there are many adversaries.

    Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    You presume that but it is not true. The Paslmist, speaking of the word of God, says this:

    Psa19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

    14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

    Truth is hidden in plain sight to those who are deceived.
     
    #111 JD731, Nov 17, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
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  12. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Those who choose to believe non-true claims for only the KJV would be deceived.
     
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  13. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Are you an adversary to the word of God being translated into present-day English instead of late 1500's English?
     
  14. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The important thing is if we have the words God chooses to make himself and his ways known to us. I could certainly see your philosophical argument for updates if God our teacher was not living inside of us. Since he does, 1500's language is not an unsurmmountable hill he cannot climb.

    How about this. The modern church is still instructed by the words of 8 Jewish men from 2000 years ago. There has been no change or update and it has worked well for God. This seems incredible to me. The only thing God has changed is the language and he has not trusted men to translate it without his presence.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    God's given word does not change, Psalms 119:89, "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven."
     
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  16. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Your statement seems to suggest that you believe that God Himself directly chose the words in the KJV, implying a claim of advanced revelation or a second inspiration for the KJV.

    Considering their acceptance of the Church of England's doctrine of baptismal regeneration and salvation through the sacraments, it has not been soundly demonstrated that all the KJV translators were true believers indwelt and guided by the Holy Spirit.
     
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  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Does a Multitude of Modern English Bible Versions
    Promote a Violation of 1 Cor 1:10?

    "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

    What did you expect The Judgment of God on Apostate Christianity to look like? Unity?

    Christiandum has stringently inacted an all out Blitzkrieg toward the attempt at the discontinuation of the Preservation of God's Word.

    And they don't care one little bit.
     
  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    There is only one Jesus Christ. He is call the Word. In Ge 15, in the beginning of the third millennium of human history, Jesus Christ was revealed in person to Abraham by the name of Lord GOD, or Adonai Jehovah. In the same passage we learn for the first time of his title, the word or the LORD. It was in this title that our Lord ministered to Israel and spoke to them, often times in a form they could see as well as hear.

    1Sa 3:1 And the child Samuel ministered unto the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision.
    Read context.

    6 And the LORD called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again.
    7 Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him.
    8 And the LORD called Samuel again the third time.

    Read context

    10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

    21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

    Pay attention when you are reading your Bible and note when this name or title is present. It is important.

    For instance, in Ezekiel this title for our Lord is in 60 verses.

    Eze 12:1 The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying,
    This is a person who comes to Ezekiel.

    In Ezekiel, the Lord GOD is in 210 verses.

    Eze 3:11 And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear.

    The word of the Lord is found 13 times in the NT. He is to be glorified in this title.

    2Th 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

    We are told the Lord will not give his glory to another. If we have the word of God it is given to us by the word of the Lord, I believe.
     
  19. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    When English-speaking believers had the word of God translated into English many years before 1611, was it given by the word of the Lord in the same sense (univocally) as is claimed for the 1611 KJV?

    Is it being suggested that the Lord gave His glory only to the Church of England makers of the KJV so that they alone are an exclusive priesthood who are permitted to interpret and translate the original-language Scriptures into English?

    The Church of England makers of the KJV made hundreds and thousands of changes and revisions to the pre-1611 word of God in English.
     
  20. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    There are pivot points in the Lord's dealing with mankind to make his purposes known. Certainly Genesis 15 is one major turning point. Read Romans 4 and you can see that God marks this as the time righteousness was imputed to Abraham for believing what he was told about a son who will be born into his family by a miracle. Read Ga 3 and find this as the time Abraham became the father of the faith. So, a pivot point in the unfolding drama of redemption was not the idea of mortal men and God did not provide his word in English because he saw some men doing it before he thought about it. God needed Abraham and Sarah to produce the promised son but he waited until it was clear to Abraham and Sarah that it could not be accomplished by the flesh and human effort, though you know they had tried for decades to produce this son that God had promised to them. The pure word of God is a miracle and miracles come from God in his appointed times.

    The Church of England did not authorize the KJV, King James did. God no doubt raised him to a place of power for this purpose at this time. God was going to use the "unreformed" Baptists in the West tp preach his word, and it is easy to see the hand of God in all this. He had to separate the Christians' from the Anglicans, Catholics, and Presbyterians and Calvinists of Europe to a more pure form of Christianity that would get sinners saved. Sadly, they have infiltrated the churches today and brought the same leaven that eventually leavens the whole lump and they have weakened the truth of God by multiplied translations that he has no part in.

    You preach a different M/O for God than I read about in the scriptures. You do not believe God has invested himself in a "holy" Bible and you preach that God has stamped the modern practice of translation, paraphrases, and the editing of his words hundreds of times with different words as good. I do not believe God is like that. One thing that is sure from these translations, and that is, men are not speaking the same thing and they are not obedient to 1 Cor 1:10.and there are divisions because of it.
     
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