No one is claiming that "you" are claiming to believe in salvation by works any more than anyone is claiming that Rome claims to believe in salvation by works. What is being claimed is that your position is salvation by works regardless if you admit it or not just as Rome's position is salvation by works whether they admit it or not.
That is precisely my point! Parables are not to be used for "clarity" since they can be easily used to prove whatever a person wants to prove. Precepts are provided in scripture for "clarity" not parables or allegories or spiritualizations.
Does Faith, in either system, merit salvation?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Jan 8, 2014.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The other analogy I used is the one where you are asked to be forgiven by a murder, but I didn't see your reply to that yet... -
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1. That being spiritually dead equals being unresponsive, but since lost can openly reject and ridicule the gospel (something a corpse would be able to do either) this analogy falls short. We believe being 'dead' is being separated and in need of reconciliation, like when a father might say to his son, "You are dead to me." Like the father said of the Prodigal Son, "He once was dead but now is alive."
2. It assumes the gospel is as weak as your bull horn. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It is enabling and powerful, not some weak 'bull horn.'
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BroBro. Skan, do u believe in gospel regeneration? I ask this to help progress our conversing...
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From the title of this thread, I was under the impression that somebody would be discussing the "nature" of regeneration. The nuts and bolts of what it actually is, rather than how and when it happens, to whom, what state they're in first, etc
Alas.
As I see it, the Calvinist position must, of necessity, deny the nature of regeneration in order for it to precede faith and justification
If the nature of regeneration can be found (in part) by looking at Ezek 11, Ezek 36 and Jeremiah 31, and then referenced to Hebrews 8-10 which describes the better ministry of Christ, we can ascertain the man:
is forgiven of iniquity
has his heart of stone removed and is given a heart of flesh
is sprinkled clean
is cleansed from all filthiness
has a new spirit
walks in God's ordinances and statutes
These are the obvious implications in the WCF under "effectual calling"
In other words, the man is godly
But if the man is made godly as a first act of God, and before justification, how can Paul be correct in Romans 4:5 by saying that God justified the UNgodly?
Also, if the man is already godly when he comes to Christ, wouldn't justification seem a bit underwhelming at that point?
So regeneration is reduced to a paltry change of disposition in order that later acts of grace might seem to pack more punch -
Bro. JamesL, thank u for ur detailed post. I am on my nook and won't be able to giveu such a detailed response as I'd like. It is God who gave us our new heart. It is God who justifies us via faith. It is God who sanctifies us. It is God who gives us the the gift of repentance. I can't find man adding anything to the "salvation equation".
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Calvinists will sometimes state their case in a way that makes it appear that they believe in such a thing though they know full well it is nonsense.
So also the case with a man who asks a local company for a million dollars. Does the "act" of asking "earn the man a million dollars"? Even if the company should decide in favor of the crazy request - is it not still "a gift"???
Sometimes Calvinists will make that case as if it is "fair pay for services rendered" and not "a gift".
in Christ,
Bob -
in Christ,
Bob -
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Jer 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; You have chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke:
turn you me, and I shall be turned; for you are the LORD my God.
La 5:21 Turn you us to you, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.
If you take hold of a handle and turn it - you are the source of power that turns the handle and thus the handle is being turned as you exert that power.
Regeneration/born of God/quickened are expressions of God's power in changing humans. Repent/believe/conversion are expressions of humans being changed due to God's power.
Just as you cannot divorce the handle turning by your power from the handle being turned neither can you divorce conversion (repentance and faith) from quickening. The manifestation of quickening is conversion. Quickening is as inseparable from conversion as repentance is to faith - simeltaneous actions.
Quickening is God changing man by bringing man into spiritual union with God's very nature or metaphorical lightlife (Jn. 17:3; Jn. 1:4) which disperses darkness(2 Cor. 4:6 with Ephesians 4:18). That union is a revelatory creative act of God (2 Cor. 4:6) within the heart. The gospel brought TO the elect is taken by God and made His creative revelatory word of command WITHIN THE HEART which dispells metaphorical darkness (1 Thes. 1:4-5).
Hence, it is not a matter of CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER because gospel conversion is turning TO God whereas quickening is being turned BY God and are necessarily simletaneous in action just as your hand turning the knob is simeltaneous with the knob being turned. Logically the force precedes the action but chronologically they are simeltaneous in action.
Hence, there is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever (Hardshellism) any more than there is such a thing as a unregenerated believer (Arminianism)
Thus regeneration is not completed until one is justified by faith as regeneration turns and thus justification by faith is the manifest expression of being turned. -
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If you are asking what DETERMINED the choice of each individual, you are question begging because it presumes a deterministic response is necessary. A chooser determines his choices, period. -
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JamesL said: ↑I, however, believe that regeneration is the final piece of the conversion process.
That's the issue of "what is" regeneration. if that doesn't get nailed down first, then all the other arguing is nothing but banging and clangingClick to expand...
Even John Calvin himself wrote, "God regenerates us by faith." And... "It may be thought that the Evangelist reverses the natural order by making regeneration to precede faith, whereas, on the contrary, it is an effect of faith, and therefore ought to be placed later."
Likewise, in his commentary on Galatians, Luther wrote:
Paul as a true apostle of faith always has the word "faith" on the tip of his tongue. By faith, says he, we are the children of God. The Law cannot beget children of God. It cannot regenerate us. It can only remind us of the old birth by which we were born into the kingdom of the devil. The best the Law can do for us is to prepare us for a new birth through faith in Christ Jesus. Faith in Christ regenerates us into the children of God. St. John bears witness to this in his Gospel: 'As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12.).' -
Skandelon said: ↑Because some choose to trade the truths in for lies and refuse to accept the truth so as to be saved.
If you are asking what DETERMINED the choice of each individual, you are question begging because it presumes a deterministic response is necessary. A chooser determines his choices, period.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑Merit - "deserve or be worthy of (something, esp. reward)"
In Calvinism, man comes to faith by a irresistible divine work of grace. Even so, does that faith merit or earn their salvation? In other words, are men saved by the "works" that God graciously caused them to do? Or are they saved by grace alone and the works are merely an outflow or fruit of that grace?
In non-Calvinism, we believe that faith and repentance are responses to God's gracious provisions...responses for which we are 'responsible' (response-abled). But, even still, the act of repenting or confessing in faith doesn't merit salvation. Someone doesn't deserve to be forgiven because they ask for it. The CHOICE to forgive anyone, even those who humbly confess, is all of Grace. God indeed will give grace to the humble, but its not BECAUSE they are humble, but because he is gracious. Their humility doesn't EARN or MERIT salvation. If not for grace, even the most faith filled and humble people in the world would die and go to hell.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑The CHOICE to forgive anyone, even those who humbly confess, is all of Grace. God indeed will give grace to the humble, but its not BECAUSE they are humble, but because he is gracious. Their humility doesn't EARN or MERIT salvation. If not for grace, even the most faith filled and humble people in the world would die and go to hell.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑A chooser determines his choices, period.Click to expand...
I might also add that you have an extreme propensity to accuse any who question you of "beggin the question". That is not a response. -
OldRegular said: ↑You accuse me of "beggin the question". I accuse you of dodging the question.Click to expand...
Please note that in the OP above you are saying that nothing a person does affects in any way their Salvation.Click to expand... -
Skandelon said: ↑So, if you refused to answer the question, "Have you stopped kicking your dog," because of the clear fallacious presumption then that would be equal to 'dodging?' Got it.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑No, I argued that faith and repentance don't merit salvation. There is a difference. While it was necessary for the Prodigal to return home to experience his father grace, it was NOT the return that merited that grace, as he didn't deserve that reception. He deserved to be punished for what he did, not rewarded. His return home didn't EARN or MERIT that grace, period.Click to expand...
1. Faith and repentance don't merit salvation!
2. Returning home does not merit salvation!
Expanding on the above from the OP you say:
Skandelon said: ↑But, even still, the act of repenting or confessing in faith doesn't merit salvation. Someone doesn't deserve to be forgiven because they ask for it. The CHOICE to forgive anyone, even those who humbly confess, is all of Grace. God indeed will give grace to the humble, but its not BECAUSE they are humble, but because he is gracious. Their humility doesn't EARN or MERIT salvation. If not for grace, even the most faith filled and humble people in the world would die and go to hell.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑A chooser determines his choices, period.Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterJamesL said: ↑Seems rather subjective. Scripture tends to use more objective verbiage, such as washing, cleansing, healing, etcClick to expand...
JamesL said: ↑Then why all the arguing about how God has to FIRST quicken someone BEFORE they can believe?Click to expand...
The order is only logical not chronoloigcal and let me demonstrate. Look at a door handle. If you take hold of the handle and turn it which is first, you turning it or it being turned? Remember, the words "Turn you us....we shall be turned."
JamesL said: ↑I believe that the very instant that God enlightens someone's mind to the gospel, that person believes the gospel.Click to expand...
JamesL said: ↑Arguing "no chronology" seems more like a convenient way to dodge the issueClick to expand...
Likewise, there can be no chrono (time) order in the statement "turn us....and we shall be turned" as that is a simeltaneous act but logically the POWER for turning precedes the ACT of being turned.
JamesL said: ↑That might be the crux of the matter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you would believe that regeneration encompasses the entirety of the conversion process. Yet, it seems to me that you've argued elsewhere that regeneration is the same as quickening, and that quickening comes first.Click to expand...
Conversion is the experience and expression of regeneration. Regeneration is God turning man from darkness to light while conversion is man turning from darkness to light
JamesL said: ↑That's the issue of "what is" regeneration. if that doesn't get nailed down first, then all the other arguing is nothing but banging and clangingClick to expand...
The multiple terms are somewhat parallel with the multiple terms used to describe the office of Pastor. Several terms are used to describe the same office because of the various aspects of that one office. He is a feeder (pastor). He is aged in wisdom (elder). He is an overseer of God's work (Bishop) but all describe the same office, same man.
Likewise, these various descriptions of the new birth. Some of the terms are descriptive of its supernatural source ( born of God, born of Spirit). Some terms describe its transition from one state to another state (translated; called). Some terms describe the sort of power used to make this change "created" "new creation". Some terms are used to describe the internal alteration "washing" "new man". Some terms are used to define its essence "quickened" "in the Spirit" "eternal life". Some terms are used to emphasize the divine means for this act of creation "called" "of His own will begat He us by the word of truth" "For as God commanded" "born of the incorruptible word of God" etc.
HOwever, regeneration in essence is being brought into spiritual union with God. God is life and thus union with God is eternal life. God is Holy, thus union with God immediately imparts holiness which washes/cleanses the spirit of man from the filth of sin. God is light and thus the light of knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ IS life - 2 Cor. 4:6. Where there is light darkness is removed. Where there is holiness unholiness is removed (cleansing). Where this is God's presence ignorance of God is removed. This occurs in the human spirit (Jn. 3:6) rather than the soul and body of man. -
OldRegular said: ↑Not really! You simply refuse to answer the question accusing me of "beggin the question". That is your typical dodge!Click to expand...
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