Do not question the salvation of other individuals in this forum. If you would like to make a well worded case why a particular theology (such as open theism for example) is outside of orthodoxy, please do so. If you can explain your reasons why it brings doubt about one's eternal state, you may do so very carefully, but do not make statements about individuals and their spiritual condition.
Does God bluff?
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Apr 1, 2003.
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Just kidding... ;) -
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Originally posted by Brother Bill:
So, by your very own interpretation of the term "predestine" we could interpret this passage like this:Click to expand...
But I never said any such thing. I believe the two terms "predestine" and "foreordain" convey different meanings, and I've said so. So your assumption that I have "interpreted" them to be equivalent is false, and renders the rest of your post meaningless. Furthermore, YOUR equivocation on the term makes the rest of the Romans 8 passage turn into nonsense.
Once again, you have built your entire argument on logical fallacies and deceptive debate tactics. In this case, it is equivocation (one of your favorite deceptive debate tactics) coupled with putting words in my mouth (another one of your favorite deceptive debate tactics). -
You really need to stop telling me what I've given as interpretations when I haven't given them. It is YOUR interpretation to say that "predestine" is equivalent to "foreordain". (And if I felt like you were worth the trouble, I'm sure I could find the post where you said exactly that.)Click to expand...
Lexicon Results for proorizo (Strong's 4309)
Greek for 4309
Pronunciation Guide
proorizo {pro-or-id'-zo}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 5:456,728 from 4253 and 3724
Part of Speech v
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 6
AV - predestinate 4, determine before 1, ordain 1; 6
Thayer's Lexicon (Help)
Nick But I never said any such thing. I believe the two terms "predestine" and "foreordain" convey different meanings, and I've said so. So your assumption that I have "interpreted" them to be equivalent is false, and renders the rest of your post meaningless.Click to expand...
Granted, sometimes debate has a lot more to do with defining the terms than covering this issues and we kind of skipped the definiation process. I wasn't intending to misrepresent you, can you explain to me your defination of foreordain as opposed to predestine?
Thanks. -
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
can you explain to me your defination of foreordain as opposed to predestine?Click to expand...
These are my definitions, however, not biblical definitions. The word "foreordain" only appears once that I can find in the NKJV, and in that case it would have been better translated as foreknown (proginosko). I'll be glad to use another word that better communicates predestination by God's permissive will, assuming you know of one.
None of this matters, however. It is obvious from the context that the word "predestined" in Romans 8:30 cannot be one of permissive will.
Romans 8:29-30: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son ... those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.Click to expand...
But that is not only an incorrect translation of the word, it doesn't remove election from the passage. Even with that error, the rest of the text clearly says God does not predestine, call, justify, or glorify everyone -- he only predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies those He foreknows. So all you've said is that God only calls those He knows in advance will respond, which contradicts all the arminian assertions that passages like John 3:16 prove God calls everyone equally. So you end up mangling two passages in the Bible for the price of one. -
Is Paul the only Apostle that addresses the issue of foreknowledge?
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Here is a great and helpful link:
http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/foreknow.html
God Bless
Bro. dallas -
Originally posted by npetreley:
These are my definitions, however, not biblical definitions.Click to expand...
I'm on my way out the door, but I will address your other issues as soon as I can. -
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
I usually use the most orthodox undertanding of the biblical language...Click to expand...
Boy, you are so bent out of shape about having your tactics exposed you'll say anything. Mr. Bill, let me give you a hint about the right way to start to restore your credibility. Start caring about the truth. -
Nick, I love ya, but you are incorrigible.
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Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Nick, I love ya, but you are incorrigible.Click to expand...
Bro. Dallas -
I'm too lazy to get up and get my Websters so I give it my best shot from memory:
Incorrigible - adj. Unable to be reasoned with or changed for the better.
The criminal had been in and out of prison so often that the board found him to be incorrigible. -
Thanks, that was mighty neighborly of ya...would it be incorrect to say a synonymous idea would be 'totally depraved'? :D
With no connotations as to Npetreley's character, but in view of the topics found throughout this forum.
Bro. Dallas -
Actually I have said that some Calvinists are "hardened" into Calvinism, in that they have so made up their minds and consumed their lives with this doctrine that they couldn't see any other view objectively unless Christ Himself knocked on their door and showed them.
Even then I'm not sure a Calvinist would get up and let him in, they'd probably just figure that if he wanted in he would let himself in. -
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Actually I have said that some Calvinists are "hardened" into Calvinism, in that they have so made up their minds and consumed their lives with this doctrine that they couldn't see any other view objectively unless Christ Himself knocked on their door and showed them.
Even then I'm not sure a Calvinist would get up and let him in, they'd probably just figure that if he wanted in he would let himself in.Click to expand...
Still enough Calvinist there to want to try and come out 'ain't there'.
Bro. Dallas -
Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Nick, I love ya, but you are incorrigible.Click to expand...
Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]Totally Depraved seems to be an accurate synonym for incorrigible. -
Originally posted by Yelsew:
Totally Depraved seems to be an accurate synonym for incorrigible.Click to expand... -
Don't take it personal brother. I thought this immediately upon reading the response as well, then I realized it was Yelsew, I have seen him contradict almost everything he has posted.
Bro. Dallas -
Originally posted by Frogman:
Don't take it personal brother. I thought this immediately upon reading the response as well, then I realized it was Yelsew, I have seen him contradict almost everything he has posted.
Bro. DallasClick to expand...
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