Does God's active role in redemption prove liberation freedom is impossible?

Skandelon · Jul 31, 2011

In a video by Bruce Ware posted by Luke in another thread he made the argument that God's active participation in bringing about such events as the crucifixion and the inspiration of scripture proves that the concept of Libertarian free will is impossible.

Here was my take on the clip in response to Luke on another thread that got prematurely closed:

Skandelon said: ↑

I found it interesting that he points to the redemption through Christ's crucifixion and to the inspiration of scripture as proofs that God ALWAYS works in this manner to bring about His desired outcome.

At the end he appears to think he has the libertarians by the throat when he declares that for God to have divinly inspired scripture under our system he must have just gotten "lucky." Laughter and applause follow as the speaker and apparently many in the audience reveal their own lack of knowledge regarding what libertarians actually believe on this subject.

What Bruce failed to recognize is that Libertarians don't deny that God does at times throughout history intervene to effectuate His desired outcome. And that He may do so through causally determined means such as a Compatabilist might describe (i.e. the use of appointed circumstances, sinful agents, second causes and the like). But those are unique examples of God's positive agency as he actively intervenes to DO something. That is what uniquely makes the scripture "divinely inspired" after all. If God causally determines all things in like manner then what is "divine" about the inspiration of scripture? How is scripture effectuated by God any differently than other Christian books if indeed God has actively determined all things in like manner? Such a view only undermines the uniqueness of God's ACTIVE work and inspiration.

You make the same error as your mentor, Luke. When the example of Dahmer was raised you pointed back to the Cross as being "the worse sin of all time" in hopes that if you can somehow prove God to be the "doer" of the deed in that case, then it would justify His being the "doer" of the deed in every case, even the most heinous ones, such as Dahmers.

So, while Libertarians might agree that God DID actively intervene to ensure the crucifixion of his Son (through second causes as a Compatibist would describe) in order to bring about the redemption of mankind, that in no way proves or even implies He likewise actively intervenes to ensure the molestation of a five year old girl for no more apparent reason than to gratify the sick lusts of a murdering heathen.

THIS is why I press you to carefully choose your words and explain your intent. It is most certainly justifiable for God to actively intervene to ensure redemption (while doing so through second causes etc to ensure his holiness isn't compromised), but to PRESUME that justifies and proves that God likewise brings about every sinful deed in a similar manner is baseless and completely unbiblical. God doesn't even TEMPT men to sin, yet your system has God not only casually determining the tempter, but actively determining the nature of the one tempted so that when he sins he could not willingly do otherwise. That is where you err.
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quantumfaith · Aug 1, 2011

Skandelon said: ↑

In a video by Bruce Ware posted by Luke in another thread he made the argument that God's active participation in bringing about such events as the crucifixion and the inspiration of scripture proves that the concept of Libertarian free will is impossible.

Here was my take on the clip in response to Luke on another thread that got prematurely closed:
Click to expand...

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

JesusFan · Aug 1, 2011

Skandelon said: ↑

In a video by Bruce Ware posted by Luke in another thread he made the argument that God's active participation in bringing about such events as the crucifixion and the inspiration of scripture proves that the concept of Libertarian free will is impossible.

Here was my take on the clip in response to Luke on another thread that got prematurely closed:
Click to expand...

really a basic philsophy question here though..

Are can there be 'complete/full" Free Will IF there is ONLY a single Supreme and Fully Free Will, that being of God?

Skandelon · Aug 2, 2011

Can you reword that, I can't understand what you are asking? Thanks

Does God's active role in redemption prove liberation freedom is impossible?

Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

quantumfaith Active Member

JesusFan Well-Known Member

Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>