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Featured Does Jeremiah 18 Teach that the Clay has a choice in Romans 9

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by prophecy70, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Romans 9

    What shall we say then? wIs there injustice on God’s part? By no means! x“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 2 but on God, who has mercy. y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” zwho can resist his will?” ato answer back to God? bWill what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” cHas the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? evessels of wrath fprepared for destruction, gthe riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he hhas prepared beforehand for glory—

    Jeremiah 18

    The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: qthe potter’s house, and there I will let you hear1 my words.” rthe potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. sspoiled in the potter’s hand, and the reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

    ucan I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. vBehold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. wpluck up and break down and destroy it, xturns from its evil, yI will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. wbuild and plant it, zReturn, every one from his evil way, and aamend your ways and your deeds.’

    b‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to cthe stubbornness of his evil heart.’
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    No
     
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  3. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Please explain
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Just maybe Jer 18 shows they did exactly what God molded them for.

    For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” zwho can resist his will?”

    God molded them to be who he wanted them to be in order to scatter them: For, later on God was going to do the following:

    Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. Exek 36:17-20

    However:

    But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

    Therefore:

    Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ezek 36:21-28

    I think a good question is; When did God begin to visit the heathen/nations/Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name?

    Acts 15?
     
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  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Obviously Jonah did resist God's will and for that he was swallowed by a huge fish. Yes Jonah repented when he was placed in a position where He could see it was better to comply with God's will than go against God's will.
    It would not have taken me three days to change my mind. However we have to consider that Jonah already belonged to God. It wasn't a matter of believing in God, it was a matter of obedience. Though it was a matter of life or death that Jonah do as God had instructed him. Though it wasn't much of a choice he still had a choice either live or die in the belly of a fish
    With out doubt Jeremiah 18 does in fact teach that all man kind has a choice to choose life. What I don't understand is why Calvinist deny this. Calvinist have never been able to prove man has no choice.
    No where in Roman's 9 does it ever say we have no choice. What it does say to me is that God is all powerful and when God has a specific purpose for a person that person will ultimately fulfill that purpose. Such as Pharaoh He resisted God yet at the same time he was doing exactly what God expected from him. So that God could show His wonderful power. However this does not mean that those He has no specific purpose for cannot come to Him. All men are drawn Jn 12:32 if we are all drawn then all men can be saved.
    Where does God's word specifically say that man has no choice between life eternal or death eternal?
    MB
     
  6. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Thank you for that explanation
     
  7. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    My question is, if all men are drawn to Christ in John 12:32, then what's keeping them from being saved?
    There are other Scriptures outside of John 12:32 that give more detail to this picture, MB.

    Just because that verse seems to say something definitive, wouldn't it be wise to look at the ones that seem to contradict it?
    I have a list if you would like to go over them.
    Here is a sampling:

    " All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]." ( Matthew 11:27 )

    " All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]." ( Luke 10:22 )

    " At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." ( Matthew 11:25 )

    " But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
    ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 )

    Matthew 16:13-17.


    Where does it declare ( without inference or implication ) that he does?
    I can show you Scriptures that outright declare that men love their sin and hate Jesus Christ ( Romans 1:32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).

    Who is the "light" in John 3:19-20?
    Jesus Christ ( John 8:12 ).

    The world hates Him ( John 7:7, John 15:18 ).
    We've already already made our collective choice.
     
    #7 Dave Gilbert, Mar 13, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
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  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    No. The verse is not about clay. It uses the illustration of a potter forming clay. We can't take the illustration beyond what is stated (this is as mistake some make dealing with the lost as dead).
     
  9. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    The lost are not spiritually dead ( dead towards God and His ways ) in their trespasses and sins?

    Believers were dead ( Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13 ), and they are not as unbelievers ( Ephesians 4:17-18 )...so what do you believe that it is to be "dead"?
     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    They are. And the potter molds the clay.

    My point is some take illustration too far (e.g., they refer to the lost as corpses, as goats, etc.).
     
  11. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    I agree, it is illustration.
    The lost are men, and this is not about inanimate objects.:(

    The lost are dead, the saved are alive.
    The lost are goats, while the saved are sheep.
    Sheep follow a shepherd, while goats do their own thing.

    As I see it, the "clay" is mankind, and like the potter, He molds men and women into the vessels He wants us to be.
    Not a very attractive picture for most, but accept it I must.
     
    #11 Dave Gilbert, Mar 13, 2019
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  12. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    The problem with how some use the illustrations is that they take them out of context.

    For example, Scripture never refers to the lost as "goats". But on this forum we see people speaking of the lost (usually the "non-elect") as being goats. What the Bible speaks of is on "that day" God separating His people from the world as a one separates sheep from goats. Likewise, Scripture speaks of those without spiritual life as "dead", but sometimes people take this too far (like the boat illustration we sometimes hear). The same is true of the potter and the clay.

    My point is that we have to be very careful when we use biblical illustration for our own purposes. It is easy to take things too far.

    Insofar as the topic itself, I do believe in unconditional election (and, although it is no longer a popular belief, a "double predestination"). I actually find the image of God being the potter and men the clay to be comforting. What we have to remember is that this is not an illustration for the lost but an illustration for the church (Paul was teaching doctrine to the Christians in Rome). The emphasis is not on the "vessels of wrath" but on the "vessels of mercy" and, IMHO, an undeniable illustration of divine sovereignty in salvation.
     
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  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Even the pharisees were concerned with Jesus' preaching this is what they said.
    Joh 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
    Joh 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
    These men could see that it wasn't just a few that were interested in Christ. They knew the people were believing.
    All the people during the sermon on the mount were drawn or they could not have come according to Jn 6:44. Just imagine 5000 people being drawn all at once. Though some were there just to see miracles. Yet they came to Him. and according to Calvinist they weren't suppose to be able to because they all were not saved at that time.
    MB
     
    #13 MB, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Most of the people who "believed" on Christ in John 6, turned their backs on Him and walked away.
    Proof that they were not His sheep, or they would have said stayed and confessed like Peter did ( John 6:59-69 ).

    They were drawn by the spectacle of a prophet who was healing people.
    The type of "drawing" being spoken of in John 6:44 is not a popularity or "hype" drawing, but a spiritual drawing that results in everyone who is drawn, comnig to Him and being raised to life on the last day ( His second coming ). It's not the same type of drawing as John 12:32.

    That type of thing happens every time a sensational or charismatic person travels the countryside.

    Some?
    By far most of the people who were drawn to Jesus were drawn by word-of-mouth that there were miracles taking place.
    Very few believed on Him in the spiritual sense.

    Again, different type of "drawing".
     
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  15. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    What about in Jeremiah 18? "
    And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
    and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent of the evil I had planned"
     
  16. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter’s hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
    7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];
    8 if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
    9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];
    10 if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
    11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
    " ( Jeremiah 18:6-11 ).

    Good question.
    I'll get back to you this evening.:)
     
  17. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    No analogy is perfect. Sheep do their own thing, too.
    Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way...(KJV)
     
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This is true but are you going to over look that they were drawn because, they came even though not all stayed. These rebelled but, we have to admit they were drawn, because they came to Christ. Judas also came to Christ because he was drawn and chosen yet Christ called him a devil.

    The miracles were a sign that drew all to Him, The same with Peter. Some believed and some didn't. Yet they came to Christ no matter the reason God not only uses men but other things as well to get our attention. God even uses our sin convict us to bring us to Him. Why would any one think that God cannot use circumstance to get our attention.

    Especially Billy Graham. While many things about the man were in question "mostly slander"
    In my humble opinion Because of Billy Graham more heard the gospel that any other evangelist. He was a freewill preacher.


    The actual amount of those saved is not known and is not stated in scripture. God uses people to draw by word of mouth. It is by the Word that we believe and that through by someones mouth.

    MB



    Again, different type of "drawing".[/QUOTE]
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yea, there were some things He said that they couldn't bear that made them leave:

    62 What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
    65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
    66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Jn 6
     
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  20. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    And that doesn't make you ask questions?
    God's word tells us why Judas was a devil:

    " While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. " ( John 17:12 )

    Because unlike Peter, James, John and the others, Judas was chosen by Christ so that Scripture ( Psalms 41:9 ) would be fulfilled.

    Peter wasn't drawn by miracles, because when Peter and some of the others came to follow Him, He had yet to perform any.
    Please see Matthew 4:17 where the Lord starts preaching repentance to Israel, but miracles followed after.

    Peter, Andrew, James and John all joined Him before He made the water into wine at Cana ( John 2:1-11 ), which was His first miracle.
    He called them, they dropped what they were doing and simply followed Him ( John 1:35-51 ).
    Not one of them questioned Him or hesitated.
    Why?

    I agree, and and Jesus explicitly told people why they didn't ( John 6:64-65, John 8:47, John 10:26 ).

    He doesn't use circumstances to get our attention...he uses His word ( Romans 10:17, 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

    So were John Wesley, John R. Rice, Dwight Moody, Charles Finney, Adrian Rogers and many others... including the Roman Catholic Church.
    This Scripture comes to mind when I think of some of his associations ( The RCC and Pope John Paul II ) and his many statements ( McCall's Magazine from 1978 ) made over decades:

    1 John 2:15.

    I found this to be especially alarming, and some of the things he did are spoken of in many articles over the years, like this one:

    Billy Graham affirms that a man can be saved apart from the name of Christ


    I agree.
    The actual amount is such that no man can number them ( Revelation 7:9 ).
     
    #20 Dave Gilbert, Mar 15, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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