One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will in the course of time choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. On the basis of this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This view is held by the majority of American evangelicals. -- From www.gotquestions.org The above is just one example of a statement of the Prescient View. Basically, according to this view of Predestination God chooses the "elect" according to His foreknowledge of the individual's choice. Wouldn't you say that His foreknowledge is an aspect of His omniscience?
So, God would know if a person were "elect" when the person was a fully cognitive adult human being. God would also know when the same human being as an immature child. God would know if this person were "elect" even before the individual was born and incapable of making any kind of rational choice. God knows perfectly all things because He is All-Knowing.
Following this line of reasoning into Eternity Past, God would actually foreknow this person as either being "elect" or "non-elect" at/before/during His creation of that person's soul. It is impossible for God to NOT know something. And a created soul could not exist as both "elect" and "non-elect" in the mind of God anymore so than a soul could exist as neither. When God brings a person into existence He has already created that person as either one or the other. God would never conceive of any individual person in a way other than the way in which He did, in fact, create that person; otherwise, that would actually result in a 'different' person. And it doesn't matter how far back in Eternity you go, you can never place finite created souls before The Infinite Omniscient God.
It could be said that God brings "elect" and "non-elect" persons into existence (all the while knowing which is which) even before those souls have themselves had a single conscious thought.
If all the above is true, then His foreknowledge cannot be based upon a choice made by a person. That would require the absurd notion that a person could exist (in order to make a choice) and in the same way not exist in the mind of God. Logically, God cannot know AND not know; just as He cannot create a rock heavier than He can lift.
It seems to me that the Prescient View must actually deny Foreknowledge/Omniscience because it demands that God at some point does not know something about a person (the choice that they might potentially make).
Does the Prescient View Deny God's Omniscience?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by franklinmonroe, Aug 13, 2014.
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Both sides of the debate have altogether misunderstood Election, and misplaced the application. Much like arguing whether a bicycle has three wheels or four.
Election is not related to the beginning of the race (faith). It is related to the END of the race - endurance, maturity, sanctification. The end of these is glorification, or adoption as sons, which is to be counted a brother of Christ, and share His inheritance. To not be put to shame at His appearing (1John 2:28) -
franklinmonroe,
Good logic and a right read of scripture on the the doctrine of predestination and election. Neither can be separated from God's omniscience. -
You know, at first glance I thought you had said "Does the President's View Deny God's Omniscience.":laugh:
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
It's simple. In our frame of reference, sequential time, it is a choice. To God, who exists outside of time, it's "already happened" and is known. NOT FOREKNOWN. KNOWN. -
Franklin....I am thrilled with your thoughtful O.P...but I think your conclusions are mistaken.
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that view would also deny the real effects of the fall,as it would assume that sinners still have that capacity residing within them to make a freewill conscious choosing...
Also think that view is a way to still allow for the freedom of man to freely decide their eternal state, as one really does not wish to focus on God choosing us out beforehand, as that smacks against our sense of "fairness/right" -
Yeshua1 said: ↑that view would also deny the real effects of the fall,as it would assume that sinners still have that capacity residing within them to make a freewill conscious choosingClick to expand...
It would not deny that.....
Not in any way....
One's view of the fall or Original Sin is completely irrelevant....
COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Also think that view is a way to still allow for the freedom of man to freely decide their eternal state,Click to expand...
That view would be meaningful whether God directly makes choices For all humans and grants absolutely NONE of them any form of free-will whatsoever...
The model itself holds even if God is creating marionettes...
It also holds if he is creating beings with genuine Libertarian Free Will...
The only difference would be what God is choosing to do with those agents after he creates them.
One would be his foreknowledge of what HE WILL DO (pull certain strings on that marionette)
The other would be his foreknowledge of what THEY WILL DO (make a particular choice).
as one really does not wish to focus on God choosing us out beforehand, as that smacks against our sense of "fairness/right"Click to expand...
It's EXACTLY THAT.
It's a different explanation of the mechanics of HOW God does so....
But it's the exact same thing.Click to expand... -
Inspector Javert said: ↑Franklin....I am thrilled with your thoughtful O.P...but I think your conclusions are mistaken.Click to expand...
Inspector Javert said: ↑Why must they be a "fully cognitive adult human being" for God to know this?Click to expand...
Inspector Javert said: ↑I know of no reason any Theologian must commit themselves to the pre-existence of souls.Click to expand...
So, by 'create' I mean to conceptualize or conceive in His mind (like a sculptor doing a masterpiece). By 'knowing' I mean realizing or actualizing that person. These are simultaneous thoughts/action by God. Since God resides outside time, this may occur in time simultaneously with the human reproduction process. Certainly, I don't know. But I it is my opinion that when God thought of me, I came into existence; I instantaneously became fully me. Contrary to the philospher's explanation of consciousness ("I think, therefore I am") I prefer that "God thought, therefore I am".
Inspector Javert said: ↑AHA ....Oh, yes it could....
at least, why couldn't it be?
They have yet to make that particular decision IN TIME. But why assume God doesn't know the result of that decision before it is indeed made?Click to expand...
I would believe that even though an infant, for example, has not yet made any conscious decisions in time God already knows what that person's choices will be and the consequences. I agree that God does know the result of that decision before it is actually made on Earth and in Time.
What I was expressing by stating that God knows a person is more than that human being's height, weight, eye color. It is also to say that God knows that person's future pain, joy, and decisions. Are we not the result of our own choices? Yes, they are OUR choices. Of course, it is God that sets everything in motion for our lives. God decides what time in history we will be born; God choses our physical and cognitive limitations. God choses our parents, and so forth and so on. God may cause that other driver on the highway to cut you off, but it our choice how we react to these things. Including the Gospel.
But again, I would say that God controls everything leading to a person's conversion. God could put a person on a park bench at the vary same time a believer would be there to witness to him/her. God grants us the faith and repentance. I believe that God does everything short of verbally accepting the Gospel for us (which is only the outward sign). Naturally then, God would not put "elect" persons in situations where they would never have the opportunity to hear the preaching of the Gospel, which is the method He has ordained.
The Prescient View states God bases His choice of electing a person on that person's decision. In order for God to 'base' a choice of election on external information, is to say He didn't know it. That is not possible for an omniscient God. To say that God (internally) knew all along the person's decision is to deny God a choice. God could not righteously chose to "elect" a person that will decide to reject the Gospel; conversely, because of His Word He must "elect" the person that accepts the Gospel. God cannot be forced to do anything. But for argument sake alone, IF God could be forced to take a particular action, it would not be out of His grace but out of necessity.
Inspector Javert said: ↑If God creates person A...that person will make choice A at time T
It is presently time B
God knows infallibly what any person will choose at time T before-hand at time B
God then (knowing what choice person A will make at time T) creates that person.Click to expand...
Inspector Javert said: ↑God's knowledge of PRECISELY that is what the prescient view maintains.....It actually asserts that God knows precisely what choice they WILL make, not just which one they "Might" make.Click to expand...
I hope this helps. -
Inspector Javert said: ↑A person doesn't "EXIST" in the mind of God....they are mere potentialities in the mind of God....Click to expand...
I am quite sure that a Universe where Earth's moon consists of Green Cheese is a potential in the mind of God.....but no such Universe actually exists. It's only a potentiality.Click to expand...
God's mere musing about a possible potentiality which he chooses NOT to create doesn't mean it exists. It means God has a vivid imagination.Click to expand...
Your whole paragraph is sickening. And it is indicative of the way you operate here on the BB. -
The truth is that with original Sin, and effects of the fall, NO sinner can come to God any more thru just free will as Adam had!
And just because God determined who would get saved, does not make those His robots!
Or that any who stayed lost were going against their own will! -
Yeshua1 said: ↑The truth is that with original Sin, and effects of the fall, NO sinner can come to God any more thru just free will as Adam had!Click to expand...
But, what makes you say Adam "came to God" with "just" free will?
And just because God determined who would get saved, does not make those His robots!Click to expand...
Or that any who stayed lost were going against their own will!Click to expand...
Every proposition you've expressed is Universally agreed to. You are 3 for 3. :)Click to expand... -
Rippon said: ↑This may be a real shocker for you...but God doesn't think the way you do. This "potentialities" stuff is for the birds.
I am quite sure that you have totally lost it. Are you a fan of William Lane Craig, by any chance?
The above is quite irreverent of you. God does not muse. And for you to say the last line is just plain awful.
Your whole paragraph is sickening. And it is indicative of the way you operate here on the BB.Click to expand...
Sorry. I just don't know what you are saying other than:
"I'm Rippon, and I hate all non-Calvinists"
"I'm Rippon, and anyone who doesn't agree with me makes me want to vomit."
"I'm Rippon, and I wish to purge anyone who doesn't suckle at the teet of the same Theologians that I do."
I get it, you hate non-Calvinists......PFFFF.....what's new. :sleep: -
Inspector Javert said: ↑I'd conceivably be offended....but, these rants are not particularly coherent.
Sorry. I just don't know what you are saying other than:
"I'm Rippon, and I hate all non-Calvinists"
"I'm Rippon, and anyone who doesn't agree with me makes me want to vomit."
"I'm Rippon, and I wish to purge anyone who doesn't suckle at the teet of the same Theologians that I do."
I get it, you hate non-Calvinists......PFFFF.....what's new. :sleep:Click to expand...
Do potentialities exist in the mind of God?
Does God have a vivid imagination?
Does God possess an imagination at all?
If God does possess an imagination, what implications does that have for His omniscience?
If God deals in potentialities He is not truly omniscient. In such a case God is reactive; having to wait (just like us) for circumstances to unfold in order to find out which potential will become reality. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterRippon said: ↑This may be a real shocker for you...but God doesn't think the way you do. This "potentialities" stuff is for the birds.
I am quite sure that you have totally lost it. Are you a fan of William Lane Craig, by any chance?
The above is quite irreverent of you. God does not muse. And for you to say the last line is just plain awful.
Your whole paragraph is sickening. And it is indicative of the way you operate here on the BB.Click to expand...
sadly you have seen the truth of this posters failed ideas...moving along the lines of the philosophical and away from the safe harbor of scripture.:thumbsup: -
Iconoclast said: ↑moving along the lines of the philosophical and away from the safe harbor of scriptureClick to expand...
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Reformed said: ↑Actually Rippon made some valid counter points,Click to expand...
Do potentialities exist in the mind of God?Click to expand...
Does God possess an imagination at all?Click to expand...
If God does possess an imagination, what implications does that have for His omniscience?Click to expand...
If God deals in potentialities He is not truly omniscient.Click to expand...
I affirm it:
You affirm it:
Everyone on B.B. affirms it.
There's really nothing to argue about........
I think you guys are just bored.
In such a case God is reactive; having to wait (just like us) for circumstances to unfold in order to find out which potential will become reality.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Inspector Javert said: ↑They don't "exist" anywhere....it's an abstraction....abstractions don't exist.Click to expand...
Inspector Javert said:He seems to have imagined this entire Universe and all that in it is, so, I'd say he does....and it is indeed "vivid".Click to expand...
God sees all things as happened, happening, and will happen. There is no potential and no need for God to imagine that which is always before Him.
Inspector Javert said:None. You are (like Rippon) making a mountain out of a molehill. Is there some verse you are aware of which states "God has no imagination"?....Is there? If not, then you're simply piling-on.Click to expand... -
Reformed said: ↑Man operates in the realm of potential, but not God.Click to expand...
You can't logically have it (potential) both ways. Read my signature...
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