Thanks Andre
Does unconditional election make God partial?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by 4His_glory, Aug 5, 2005.
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We know that:
God knew or knows who will/are His from the beginning.
We know that He chose first. I think this make sense since He made the decision to send Christ. But we must choose also.
We know that God died, tasted death for all yet all will not be saved.
We know that God God does work the hearts of any or all that He desires. I think we can prove that in every case that God harden or hid His word we see people who Goc knew would reject, or that it states in the text they had hardend first. Or that they refused to believe.
It is when we go further, stating that we are taking things to its logical conclusion, that we all come up with a model that does not fit. I don't think romans answer is so much that it is agreeing or disagreeing with the question of how can man be held accountable. But more saying that you cannot understand an infinite God and His ways . So whou are you to question. If we knew all that God knew where would faith be?
I think we can say God is partial to those who believe and call upo0n the name of the Lord, butnot partial in who is allowed to do that. So in a real sense calvinism is very partial but biblical christianty is not.
IN Christ,
Tim -
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Timtoolman -
The scripture agrees with you. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that men perish because they believe not, and then in vs 11 it says that because they believe not, God sends them delusions to believe the lies of the false-teachers.
The rejection of Christ comes BEFORE the hardening of the heart. -
Timtoolman,
Pastor Larry is not here so I'll have to do this task.
For the umpteenth time We do not take the Bible and try to make it fit John Calvin's Beliefs.
We take the Bible and see what is simply there.
We see man as a depraved, lost, sinful, creature unable to save himself, and totally dependent on God for Salvation. Romans 3:23
We see a God who chose a Nation and certain people and we see that the Bible calls that Election. Mark 13:27
We see God accomplishing everything he set out to accomplish on the Cross in his Son Jesus Christ.
Col 1:20
We see God working in the hearts of men and women effectively calling them to faith in Christ. Acts 13:48
We see God's promises that all he calls as His own will never perish. John 10:28-29
Now you can take your personal salvation experience and describe it anyway you want to, but at the end of the day what you say about your salvation will be very similar to the above.
Our Main Difference is in the HOW Salvation happens in an invididual's life. -
I could keep repeating this same point and you can keep pretending you don't understand it. But how does that tactic of yours really "help" Calvinism??
In Christ,
Bob -
#1. They are all judged "According to deeds". BUT NOT ALL are bound for hell according to the Romans 2 text.
#2. The Results of that impartial judgment “of deeds” is NOT that all go to hell for it is all IN the context of the call to repentance.
<6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
<7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
#3. They are ALL judged and it is not the "HEARERS of the law but the DOERS that WILL be JUSTIFIED"..
#4. Romans 2 includes BOTH successful AND failing cases for both Jews and Gentiles. It does NOT argue that when all are judged all go to hell.
#5. Romans 2 argues that the “Doers of the Law” – will be justified. It does not say that they are “sinless” or “need no justification”. It is IN the context of salvation and the need for repentance that we SEE these “doers” for they are those who accept the Gospel.
Why treat ALL in this way?
ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??
How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?
ANSWER: It does not.
In Christ,
Bob -
Christ makes the same point about the impartial process of the Gospel in Matt 7 that we see in Romans 2.
"NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but he who DOES the will of My father" Matt 7.
Just as Romans 2 does not anticipate "ONLY FAILURE" in that impartial judgment of God - neither does Matt 7.
See it again - for the first time.
In Christ,
Bob -
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Here are my thoughts on the deeds judgment mentioned in Romans 2 (and in Matt 7 as it turns out).
#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.
This is devastating to Calvinism.
#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.
This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.
#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.
#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.
#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.
#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11
In Christ,
Bob -
5th time...tell me your thoughts on this deed judgement
Thanks..
In Christ..JamesClick to expand...
Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.
It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.
In Christ,
Bob -
Proof - notice how many times it is "impossible" twist Romans 2 around on each successful case listed IN THE TEXT by saying "AND so since all are condemned impartially all go to hell"?
In Christ,
Bob -
bob i will drop this tread for now.
we are talking about the same subject or another tread.
unless the subjetc changes on this tread..no need to go back.
as it stands now...to you romans is saying the deeds judgement is when we see if we have salvation..if i understand you right -
IF I am talking about Romans 2 on another thread - please stop me. This is the one that has the term "partial" in the subject title so it is the one I check for Romans 2 "stuff".
The "deeds judgment" has nothing to do with "us seeing something about ourselves". In Romans 2 Paul speaks of a future justification for all saints based on a future judgment. That judgment is "not partial" and is "in the context of the Gospel" where all have responded to - or rejected the Gospel and their fruits are clearly seen by those things written in the books.
(See Daniel 7 for the exact event described literally by Daniel.)
In that end-time judgment event - THE impartial JUDGMENT of ALL results in "JUDGMENT PASSED IN FAVOR OF THE SAINTS". Daniel 7:22
In Christ,
Bob -
Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> We know that He chose first. I think this make sense since He made the decision to send Christ. But we must choose also.Click to expand...
</font>[/QUOTE]Web I think since God knew us before the beginning of time or before we were born He chose to provide salvation for us. Not really deep. No conflict in scripture there. -
Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Timtoolman,
Pastor Larry is not here so I'll have to do this task.
For the umpteenth time We do not take the Bible and try to make it fit John Calvin's Beliefs.
We take the Bible and see what is simply there.
We see man as a depraved, lost, sinful, creature unable to save himself, and totally dependent on God for Salvation. Romans 3:23
We see a God who chose a Nation and certain people and we see that the Bible calls that Election. Mark 13:27
We see God accomplishing everything he set out to accomplish on the Cross in his Son Jesus Christ.
Col 1:20
We see God working in the hearts of men and women effectively calling them to faith in Christ. Acts 13:48
We see God's promises that all he calls as His own will never perish. John 10:28-29
Now you can take your personal salvation experience and describe it anyway you want to, but at the end of the day what you say about your salvation will be very similar to the above.
Our Main Difference is in the HOW Salvation happens in an invididual's life.Click to expand...
Agian if you are offended then let me know I will refrain.
I agree mostly with your post Hardseller but let me ask you this. Did anyone besides Isrealites gain salvation in the old testement or was it only Jews? -
Timtoolman,
I became a "calvinist" before I ever read anything John Calvin ever wrote. I still haven't read much of what he wrote. I became a "Calvinist" because the majority of Baptists in the first century of Baptist history were "Calvinists".
You do not offend me by calling me a Calvinist. We all understand that is a word that is commonly used to describe the Doctrines of Grace.
As far as anyone besides Israelites coming to salvation - absolutely yes. Remember Rahab who is included in the genealogy of Jesus Christ? Remember Ruth the Moabitess? Those come to mind quickly and I'm sure there are others. God has never hesitated to choose people from all tribes and all races and all nations. -
HardSheller --
Do you believe God loves EVERYONE or just the believers?
Do you believe that the sacrifice of Christ propitiates (appeases God) for the sins of the "Whole World"? Or just "believers"?
Does the bible ever say "The Whole World will be saved"?
In Christ,
Bob -
</font>
- Do you believe God loves EVERYONE or just the believers?</font>
Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?Click to expand...John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.Click to expand...2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentanceClick to expand...
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.Click to expand...- Do you believe that the sacrifice of Christ propitiates (appeases God) for the sins of the "Whole World"? Or just "believers"?</font>
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.Click to expand...1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.Click to expand...Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.Click to expand...
</font>- Does the bible ever say "The Whole World will be saved"?</font>
Matt. 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.Click to expand...Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'Click to expand...Matt. 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption-- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."Click to expand... -
Originally posted by BobRyan:
HardSheller --
Do you believe God loves EVERYONE or just the believers?
Of Course God loves everyone but He does not save everyone.
Do you believe that the sacrifice of Christ propitiates (appeases God) for the sins of the "Whole World"? Or just "believers"?
The Sacrifice of Christ was sufficient for the sins of the whole world but not efficient for the whole world.
Does the bible ever say "The Whole World will be saved"?
Not to my knowledge but then I guess it would depend on your definition of World, wouldn't it?
In Christ,
BobClick to expand...
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