Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3)

Chappie,

Your post to Ken Hamilton was perfect and being without out error it was beautiful!

Ray Berrian

 

Bob Ryan,

I especially liked the way you phrased your last paragraph. Well said.

 

Some interesting reading from the Internet at: www.geoffrobinson.net/calvinism/calvinism.html

Why Criticisms of Calvinism Did Not Convince Me

I grew up a Catholic. At the age of 16, I became a Christian, a believer and follower of Jesus. In the winter of '95-'96, I started listening to RC Sproul's Renewing Your Mind. (I could have listened before, but that's the first time I remember listening.) I was impressed with RC's intelligence and how respectful he was to opposing viewpoints. That January, they did their series on predestination.

At first, I thought he was going to teach about foreknowledge. Then, I realized he was going to teach a Calvinist position on election. I was floored. I honestly didn't think anyone believed that way anymore.

Then, I started becoming convinced. I'm writing to explain my thought processes on objections I had. Common objections are dealt with by RC Sproul in his book, Chosen by God. I will not cover objections he already addressed. I will be going over more questions I had. Any objections Sproul raised...I was outmatched. That's why I must refer you to his book. Even if you are an Arminian like I was, it is a good book to read so you understand Calvinism. I had a lot of misconceptions.

Final note, I agreed with Calvinism for a while, but I hated believing it. I've come around since then.

God Wasn't Being Fair

Well, no he wasn't. But God isn't fair...but that's ok. In the one parable, he treats some workers with more mercy by giving them the same money as other workers for less work. This is called a divine perogative. And, no, it's not fair.

I also realized that the conversion of Paul wasn't fair. He doesn't strike everyone down on a road with a big vision. That's not fair. This made me realize God doesn't have to be fair. He doesn't have to do something for everyone. And that takes away a major Arminian objection.

And I know better to ask God for what I deserve. That would mean I would go to hell.

Does Arminianism Provide a Better Answer?
I thought about this, and then had to conclude no. I was convinced that I had no desire to choose God until God put the desire in me. Arminianism has dead people wanting God. This made no sense to me. Once you are convinced of the spiritual deadness of the unregenerate man, you will be a Calvinist.

Does God Actively Predestinate People for Hell?
Well, no. Get this: for those he doesn't elect, He allows Arminianism to be true. ??? You see, God allows the unelect, spiritually dead person to choose what he (or she) wants. (that's Arminianism) Since they are spiritually dead, they choose not God 100% of the time.

Conclusion
So that's my story. We don't have to agree on this, but I pray you will see the truth and beauty and usefulness of this doctrine.
Praise God for saving me. For setting His love upon me before the foundation of the world. Amen.

[ September 26, 2002, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

More interesting reading from the Internet at: home.rochester.rr.com/matthewl/predestination/problems.html#not_fair

God Is Not "Fair"

Many Christians don't believe in predestination because it's not fair. God is showing favoritism to some by giving them gifts of eternal life on a completely arbitrary basis, they say. This appeals to the world's concept of fairness and justice. To the world, fair means equal. Parents know how that is not true.

There are many things which have a profound impact on our lives about which we have no choice. For example, you had no choice of whether you were: male or female, born in a Muslim or Christian family, made an orphan or with parents, in a rich or poor family, shy or outgoing, born to an abusive or loving father, and so on.

Is it fair for God to make some with disabilities from birth? Unlike today, in Jesus' time blind people could not do anything and had to beg for food. They didn't have organizations that would help them get educated or learn a skill. In John 9:1-3, Jesus says that a man was born blind and lived that way for half of his life solely so that the glory of God might be displayed in his life. Was that "fair"?

It is inconsistent if you say that it is fair when God puts people in terrible situations on earth, but that he can't do it in eternity. The only difference is a matter of degree. We need to align our concept of fairness with the Bible.

[ September 26, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

If you want to make this illustration biblically correct, you could say that neither wanted the candy bar, but God decided to let one of them taste that it was good just like we are made to taste that He is gracious (1 Pet. 2:3). Would you say that God is unjust in giving one the candy bar and not the other with the full knowledge that they both had their backs to Him in the first place? The one who did not receive the candy bar did not want it in the first place!!!

God made the difference; all the difference.

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" [1 Cor. 4:7]

_________________

PB, YOu need to clean it up. There are clear posting rules and you have violated them. I agree with you about the need to read and study Scripture; I agree with you that these problems are answered by Scripture. However, you will not be permitted to attack people as you have done in this post. I edited it all for the sake of three lines that you could have left unsaid and still communicated your point. You need to tone it down and communicate with grace, regardless of your personal feelings. Consider this your public warning. Next time, temporary suspension will be in order.

Moderator.

[ September 27, 2002, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

You have focused on the fact that I have used temporal examples and not eternal ones. But remember it was you who established the topic of this thread: "Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?" It is not my burden to prove election, merely to show that your proposition is flawed. The topic is God being just. You used scriptures to establish the fact that God is just. I agree that God is just. You have not used scripture to establish that election is unjust. Instead you have applied your impression of what justice is and that if God is just He will act accordingly to what you feel is just - not elect men unconditionally to salvation. I have shown that God has acted in ways that "seem" unfair by men's standards, and you have agreed with the points. So at this time the burden of proof is still upon you to show that God cannot show mercy on whom He chooses and still be just. Then we can move on to election, salvation and eternal things. It is up to you to show that God would pervert judgment and justice by acting to unconditionally save some of mankind. You have agreed that He can act towards one with mercy and towards another without mercy in temporal things and still be just. Why can He not act that way in spiritual things and still be just?

 

I find it interesting how some non-Calvinists wish to judge God. It makes me think of Mormonism in a certain way for, as I understand it, Whom we know as God is just a man who has made it upward in the spiritual hierachy of things according to Mormonism. Ah, but the Creator of the universe, and specifically of us, is not to be judged by mere human emotions or mere human conduct or mere human abilities.

(Job 9:32 NKJV) "For He is not a man, as I am, That I may answer Him, And that we should go to court together.

(Isa 55:8-12 NKJV) "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. {9} "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. {10} "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, {11} So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. {12} "For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

(Num 23:19 NKJV) "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

I praise God that He acts righteously at all times as the Holy One, unanswerable to any mere man.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

"Now let me sum it up in these words - God does not stand before you for you to accept or reject Him; you stand before God's justice to be saved or damned, according to the will of God. Now that's God's Word, whether you like it or whether anybody likes it, whether you believe it or whether anyone believes it...The God of the Bible is sovereign on the throne, and no man commands or even suggests to God what to do. No saint would even dare suggest to God what to do. Every sinner who ever gets saved bows in the dust of repentance at the feet of a sovereign God, surrendered completely for God to save him or damn him as God pleases...Grace is free, but grace is in the hands of a Sovereign God, and God gives it to whom He will and when He will. Did you know that? That's God Word, because it says tht Christ 'quickeneth whom He will.'" - L.R. Shelton, "Calvinism Exalts God", Voice of Truth radio broadcast.

[ September 27, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

When the Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then observes his OWN precious sweet daughter writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry "Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear - "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about You in the end) Blessing the fact that He chose You - that it was "unfair" as you way - but it was in YOUR favor - so just enjoy! Enjoy!

God who arbitrarily selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Cavlinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the calvinist mind.

And for us Arminians - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 27, 2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Hallelujah! Let us rejoice! God did! He has given us the gospel message. Let us place our eternal destiny in His hands, and His hands alone - not in our "free will", not in what we think we can do. Anyone who repents and believes will be saved. Come to Christ Jesus, call on Him, and welcome to all who come!

(Rom 10:12-15 NKJV) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. {13} For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." {14} How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? {15} And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ September 27, 2002, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

That's not what I said, and you know it! I said no one gets less than they deserve. Those in heaven get better than they deserve.

The words you are using (injustice, justice) are dealing with levels (for lack of a better word) of treatment of people. Actually, there are three levels--justice, injustice, and grace.

Justice is giving others what they deserve. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, etc" is justice. Giving someone a day's wage for a day's work is justice.

Injustice, on the other hand, is giving someone something worse than they deserve. It is cheating someone out of something that is rightfully theirs. It is impossible for God to treat any human being unjustly because we deserve nothing from Him. We have no right to anything from God.

And finally, there is grace. Grace is giving someone better than they deserve, or better than they earn.

Sometimes God deals with men justly. Those who are told to "Depart from me..." are receiving justice from God, for they are getting exactly what they deserve. No human being in their right mind would desire justice for themselves from God.

Sometimes He deals with men graciously. Those who are in Christ, who God seats in the heavenly places, are receiving grace from God, for they are getting better than they deserve.

But God never deals with men unjustly, for men never receive less than they deserve.

 

Claims of justice are misunderstood. God is just in sending every human to hell for all humans are sinners. God is just in saving every human because Christ's death is sufficient for all sins for all time.

In terms of bald fairness, God was unfair to punish Christ for sins he had never committed. But I am glad that he was. God would be equally unfair to punish humans for sins that Christ atoned for.

So is God unfair? You better believe he is.
Is God unjust? In no way. There is no sinner in hell who doesn't deserve the eternal flames for his sin. Neither is there a person in heaven who got there by his own merit, in any way.

To chase the trail of justice in this discussion is fruitless and unproductive. The calvinist position is not one of injustice. It is one that can explain the seeming injustice. I think why Chappie and Ray and Bob have such a hard time with it is because their presuppositions do not allow them to see through this argument. I cannot understand why they are hung up on it; but then I don't share their thought process about God and his will.

The questions for Chappie and Ray and Bob are these:
1. Was God unjust to allow a child to be born in to a crack mother in the streets of New York while allowing me to be born in a Christian home with faithful godly parents? Or was that simply the luck of the draw that greatly increases my chance of salvation, humanly speaking?

2. Was God unjust to allow people to be born in 1000AD in the Inca civilizations of South American while allowing you to be born in the twentieth century in evangelical America?

In both of these situations, a God of justice allowed people to be born into a situation that was manifestly unjust in terms of likelihood of hearing and receiving the gospel. How can your God be fair if he allows people to be born into situations like that while sparing others?

 

Christ Jesus was certainly punished for the sins of His people. Who can read these verses and not see punishment in them? I submit no one can who reads them honestly.

(Isaiah 53:4-5 NKJV) Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. {5} But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

(Isaiah 53:10 NKJV) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ September 27, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Under the idea of fairness and justice that some are advocating in this thread, it sounds to me that they are saying that unless everyone ever conceived in the entire history and future of the planet earth hears the gospel presented with the exact same words in the exact same manner in the exact same environmental conditions, then God is unfair and unjust. I submit that such a claim is absurd and nonsense to the nth degree.

(Rom 3:19-26 NKJV) Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. {20} Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. {21} But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, {22} even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; {23} for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, {24} being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, {25} whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, {26} to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

So was it fair for God to punish Christ for breaking laws that he never broke?

Except for Isa 53 (as Ken pointed out), and many passages where the idea of it is clear.

So is God unjust when he does not punish us according to the law?

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My presupposition is primarily that God is and that God has spoken. I take his word as his word and I take it for what it says. I do not feel the liberty to say certain things are not true simply becuase I cannot figure them out. If God's word says it and I can't reconcile it, the problem is with me.

I am talking about the issue of probabilities. In my theology, I don't face this problem. But for you who have demanded fairness in which God cannot intervene while remaining fair, surely you must admit that a child born in a Christian home is more likely to be saved than a child born to a crack mother or a child born in the Amazonian jungle 1000 years ago.

Being born in 20th century America means that your chances of hearing the gospel message are immeasurably greater than if you were born in the jungles of Africa or South America 1000 years ago. That is imly the reality of the situation. This is not a problem for me because I believe that God always saves his chosen ones and is completely fair in doing so. But how can you say that?

I agree with this, but how can you, since you do not believe that God can sovereignly settle the matter. In your theology, it seems that God is limited by what man will allow him to do.

 

"A) An equal application of the law is just.. An unequal application of the law without mitigating circumstances is unjust. Only when studying the bible have I ever heard this principle denied."

God does apply the law equally to all, for all, apart from Christ, merit the wages of sin. The penalty then is due to all, equally.

When Jesus died on the Cross, he suffered the penalty for all, equally.

There is no unequality here.

"B) Never in scripture is Christ?s death on the cross referred to as punishment. A debt was owed by those that Christ loved, they could not pay that debt, Christ choose to pay that debt of his own volition."

Christ's death is called a propitiation, meaning it satisifed he wrath of God which os due the sinner and the sin. Christ bore the due punishment for our sins on the Cross. God made him who knew no sin to be sin for our justification. By His stripes we are healed. there simply too many instances where the idea of punishment comes through for this to be a reasonable claim.

"C) Justice is a fair and equal application of the law. The penalty prescribed should always be commensurate with the crime committed. Even in hell, the degree of punishment is made commensurate with the sins of each individual. It does not require punishment to the letter of the law. But for people to believe that equality of application is not required in order to maintain the integrity of the law.
Justice and fairness are integral to each other. You cannot have one without the other. If what is being advocated here in the name of God were a reality in our judicial system, cries of injustice would be so loud that even the dead could hear them. Why do we throw logic out the window when we study the bible."

No one throws logic out. What you seem to be complaining about is God's grace. His grace, to you, is unjust and unfair, since it goes only to a segment of the people who don't deserve that grace any more or any less than the segment that does not receive it. But that is exactly why it is grace. If it were otherwise it would be based on some other thing that merited salvation. But as Paul puts it, then grace would no longer be grace.

"1) If you can demonstrate to me that everyone that is born in a good Christian home goes to heaven, and every crack baby born will end up in hell, then from the top of every mountain top, at the top of my lungs I will proclaim it?s unfairness. Have you read the story about Lazarus and the poor beggar. You so fail to put into perspective the temporal things that God allows us to go through relative to the eternal consequences of the life to come."

Empirically, if there is a correlation between wealth and salvation, actually, it is likely the other way. The poor are more likely to reeive salvation than the rich, for inther own material poverty they are moe open to recognisiing theior spiritual poverty, and hence their need for God.

But as practical matter, if we take God out of it (which you seek to do by complaining that if God acts in grve to gift someone with faith) then I think it is easily seen that the rich, who have more time to under such things, have a better chance of hearing and considering and believing the gospel. Those who are so poor that they have no time to consider anything beyond where the next scrap of food is coming from willnot think about the gospel or God.

"2) Did being born in twentieth century America save you. Every man will be afforded an opportunity to accept or reject Christ. Your chance will not be more advantageous or persuasive than mine."

Again I think this is empircally observable. It is not a coincidence that Lutehr's bid at reforming the church suceeded where others who shared many ofhis odeas mere decades before, failed. The difference was an advance in technology; the priniting press. Likewise even in Jesus day, the time was crucial. The advent of the Pax Romana made the spread of the gospel possible where a century or two before it would not. Today, withthe ease of communication and spread of bibles... you can't honestly say it isn't easier to hear the gospel now (and faith comes by hearing remember) than in times past.

"3) They are not born out of his reach. And he will reach them. Did you just read 1 Peter 4:5&6"

No one says they are out of his reach. That's a straw man. but the reality is that yourposition begs a question: What will God do when he "reaches" them? Give them faith? Isn't that unfair? Why them and not some other fellow elsewhere? Is God not, by your thinking, showing partiality, being unfair and unjust, by reaching them anot not someone else (and unless you are a universalist, you must admit that God does not "reach" everyone). By your thinking it seems that if God "reaches" them then he is being unfair.