Election spoken of in scripture...like this-

"Rockson,
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

When you attempt to set aside God's word...and offer your own...you no longer have the word of God...

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

You suggest it can...God says it CANNOT...you reject the word of God

Nonsense.Greece was a gentile area, and there is no indication of what you say as you attempt to explain away truth

Another man centered denial of Gods word.

 

Is it that I reject the world of God? Or rather that you're reading the word of God wrongly? I'd say the passage in question has nothing to do with an unsaved person having no ability to get saved that is by making a choice. It's talking about believers if they choose to walk in the flesh they will die. Rom 8:13 They don't have to stay walking in the flesh they can yield to the Spirit.

If they choose to walk carnally they'd be like what Paul calls them in Corinthians...baby Christians or carnal.1 Cor 3:1-9 It most certainly does not mean unsaved or unregenerated can't have a will wanting God. Jesus even said about his disciples one time, "There spirit is willing but their flesh is weak" Didn't mean they couldn't have stayed awake either for he told them to do so. Matt 24:41 He wouldn't have told them to do something they weren't capable of doing. God has told the sinner to repent. They can do it if they choose to. Then God regenerates their spirits AFTER THEY have chosen him.

 

"Rockson,

Yes,,,that about covers it

Let me explain...when you hold error as you do, the truth does not click when you see it posted

You would and have said that, and that is why you are in error.

Biblical salvation is God making a determination to seek and save that which is lost, HIS SHEEP, no more, no less.

Wrong again...it speaks of two persons saved/ unsaved/ those with the Spirit, those without the Spirit...
Not a "man centered choice"...No ...those under the Spirits dominion, Kata pneuma.... and those governed and under the dominion of the flesh...

not taught here...

totally man centered error...other than that it is just fine,

 

Well I guess I've been told BUT....I respectfully disagree. :Cool

 

Yes....you respectfully disagree with scripture and the clear teaching.
Do you want to learn what it actually teaches?

 

Sure Icon! You referred to clear teaching. Would you kindly share with me how Jesus in the verse below could lament over Jerusalem the following way if it was really wasn't God's will for them to be his children? It says below he longed to. Other translations say it was his desire. In all honesty doesn't that signify to you God's will? That they be saved? God says HE WAS WILLING...but they weren't. Tell us as you said, clearly if you would how can anything of Calvinism can make sense in the light of Matthew 23:37.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Matthew 23:37

 

My friend,
First let me point out I was speaking of the extremely clear teaching of Romans 8...that two kinds of men were described....the unsaved...dominated by the carnal mind and the flesh....The saved led by the Spirit to mortifying the deeds of the flesh.
Now you raise the issue of Mt 23:37.....Jesus was sad in that He would have gathered in their children. ...but the reprobate leadership opposed the preaching and teaching of truth.....Jesus declares their depraved condition....saying you will not come to me...
All depraved sinners love their sin....and not one will come in and of themselves,nevertheless Jesus knew they would go to the White Throne Judgment. ....without their sins being atoned for,no reconciliation, no propitiation,no expiation. ...but rather certain second death.
God Does NOT Delight OR Take Pleasure In The DESTRUCTION Of The wicked.....But Their DESTRUCTION Is certain.
All men everywhere are to repent and believe the gospel act's17 :31....but they are depraved and unwilling naturally to submit to God's, law,word.
Jesus links the rejection to the OT. Leadership who were reprobate....the great religious whore Jerusalem is about to be judged within their lifetime....an elect remnant will be preserved Isa1:9.
Nice question...:Thumbsup

 

Paul was addressing saved and unsaved persons, and His point was that the unsaved person can read the bible, hear the sermon, but in their lost state cannot by themselves accept or even know its spiritual meaning!

 

Does God love all persons exactly the same fashion?

 

If you wouldn't mind let's look at the whole verse again so as not to miss the point I was really wanting to make.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matt 23:37 (KJV)

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Matt 23:37 (CSB)

Didn't Jesus clearly say above that it was his will, God's will to have gathered and saved they and their children? Can one in good conscience really claim Jesus wasn't sincere in his statement? Obviously if these people weren't saved and Jesus said without question he longed and desired to have them saved (gathered)....then what happens to irresistible grace? God wanted them and desired them but their not being willing stood in the way. Why should it have?

 

God is not pleased with all persons in the same fashion but that's not the same as LOVE.

 

God has chosen to love His own in a Covenant relationship way, not same for all!

 

this was answered but you ignored it.

God's saving grace, irrestible grace, is never ultimately resisted;
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3;Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

Well actually I have no problem with God showing certain types of favor to those who are in Covenant relationship with him. That's not favor as it relates to salvation though but favor as it relates to someone being obedient. God is LOVE. There is no less LOVE in God.

 

This is off topic...the thread is about election.

 

My Statement: Didn't Jesus clearly say above that it was his will, God's will to have gathered and saved they and their children?

Icon's Statement : No....that is not what was said...here is what was said;
"how often would I ".....How often I wanted .....It does not speak to What God actually did.

My Response: What? I think you know you're grabbing at straws here Icon. Would means this is what my will was to do! Any civilized enlightened court of law would tell you the same. Would means YES I'll take this positive action. It was his will for them to be saved! How possibly can you deny it? You say well it doesn't speak of what God did. Well certainly he didn't do it for HE SAID THEY were not willing he didn't say he wasn't. If he was willing and that's what he wanted then how Calvinists think it should have been irresistible grace time.

So therefore in your way of thinking if something wasn't actually done...well Jesus I guess didn't quite mean it....or it wasn't truly heart felt or maybe he changed his mind. Don't know how you could quite say that if Jesus said it was my will for them to be saved. I'm sorry but that stands forever! You can't change it. So again if irresistible grace were true it would have been the order of the day if Jesus meant what he said that he wanted them gathered. It wasn't employed which has to demonstrate such doesn't exist.

 

And Icon I fail to understand for the life of me why you rolled out your whole discourse of effectual calling. Has nothing to do with the issue I raised. Forgive my but it seems that when you get in a jam you just pile on indoctrination or so many other things to divert the issue. No? Explain why not?

 

This forum is a place to learn. Little one sentence tweets is not going to help anyone. To learn you need to read, or what is posted is shared ignoranace

 

It still is, as the point was that the Lord chooses to save His own Covenant people, that he elects them based upn knowing them in a special way that he does not have with the lost.