Election?

Nope, that's not what I said.

You are saying I said it is a cause & effect, that there is a catalyst involved. That we are the catalyst so therefore God responds to us.

But that isn't what I said.

The plan of salvation was in place before the foundations of the world. And so was the knowledge (God's knowledge) who would reject Him and who would choose Him. Therefore, because He has that knowledge, (and we don't), He foreknew who would be His elect & because He foreknew, we are predestined.

It has nothing to do with a catalyst or mankind being the cause. It has nothing to do with God responding to the will of His creation. It has nothing to do with cause & effect, but that is how we humans are used to viewing things. We question because we see thru a glass darkly at the present time.

But, as you know, God does not have our limitations.

We have the free will to choose, but God already knows the outcome.

We mere humans trying to understand this is like trying to comprehend eternity or timelessness. We can't, no matter how hard we try.

BTW, what about Moses?

 

Why was Moses elected... He killed an Egyptian?... Murder
Why was David elected... He lay with a Uriahs wife Bathsheba and sent her husband to the front line to be killed to hide his sin?... Fornication
Why was Solomon elected... He built the temple of God and took strange wifes who turned him away from the worship of the true God?... Idolatry
Why was Peter elected... He denied the Lord three times?... Unfaithful and unbelieving.
Why was Paul elected... He persecuted the church of the most high God?... Accessory to Murder and deceit... What good did any of these men do that would cause God to elect them?... Or is election based upon what God does and not what they or us do or have done?... Brother Glen

[ November 07, 2002, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

To so limit God's power and love is incomprehensible to me.....He has the ability to save all of us....I like what you said Helen on page 1....I tend to agree with you most times...you stated things very well.

Just look at God's attributes:
God is just....punishing with hell those who were never given opportunity for repentance is not just.

I for one believe firmly that scripture points out that ones name is stricken out of the Book of Life...not written in....we all have the potential to be in that book on judgement day. Only the day of our death seals our fate.

God wouldn't need to enter the names that will never have a chance.

Someone explain to me: why would God predestine for salvation some close family members and not the others....what is the method there, as far as those that believe election is on a calvanist basis?

What do you think about the concept that elect or chosen is a status referring to believers because of adoption. We were not the natural offspring of God. He in turn chose to take us unto Himself, because we believed in Him.????

[ November 07, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Carly33 ]

 

There is a balance in scripture about the sovereignty of God and man's responsibilty. Salvation is the work of God in a sinner's life....God draws people to Himself-we can not take any credit for any part of it. Our responsibilty is that we obey His call and sovereign grace on our lives. We act based on His election,which is all in His control anyway....

 

very interesting to say the least. My comments may look colorless compared to everyone elses but here goes anyways.

I think a definition of predestination is needed.
Maybe elect and chosen also.

Could our meanings of the words be different that Gods meaning. I know that God call the things that are not as though they were and he declares the end from the beginning. Could we be pedestined in Gods mind because of his foreknowledge but in our minds we would be chosen (set apart) because we choose to be? Salvation is a free gift that we recieve by faith. How do we recieve it? By exercising our faith by confessing with our mouth, Jesus is Lord. This is not a work but a recieving a free gift........oh now I got off track.....sorry about that.

[ November 07, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: rkbo ]

 

What we fully need to comprehend is that we have finite minds....God can do it all at the same time....He is an enigma....who are we to try and figure Him out or His methods...all I know is that He says in His word that He died for all, and loves all and wills that none should perish, and Jesus wept over the lost , rebellious ones.

That's enough for me.

 

God commands everyone everywhere to repent. Everyone has an opportunity to do so. "Calvinists" do not deny this. The problem isn't opportunity, the problem is the radical corruption of the human heart.

Again, everyone has a "chance." The problem is the radical corruption of the human heart.

Excellent question! I'm glad that you asked it. The Scriptures speak about this very issue, and in fact speak about the issue in relation to twin brothers:

"Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by Him who calls--she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written: 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.... One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will? But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"
* Romans 9:10-16, 19-20a

First, it "neutralizes" the meaning of "election." Second, election precedes adoption (Ephesians 1:5).

Rev. G

 

Thanks for the answers , I still think God probably has a whole other method that He could not fully explain to our finite minds...Ever try to describe a tree to a fetus? There's no point of reference. Just trust.

 

Election:

Exodus 19:4
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.

Free will:

Exodus 19:5
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Verse 4 says "unto", not "into". In verse 5, the word "if" makes the offer conditional. Election and free will seem to work together in a way that I do not fully understand. I think the following verse is a prime example that we do have a choice in the matter and grace is resistable.

Matthew 23:37
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

We DO have a choice in the matter. "Calvinists" don't deny that.

Is the Holy Spirit resisted? Sure?

Is grace? Well, yes and no.

The term "irresistible grace" is a very poor term. Then again, so is "Calvinist." Nevertheless, God's grace eventually OVERCOMES the stubborn, sinful will (that has continued to resist) of an elect individual so that the person is liberated and freely responds to the saving work of God in his/her life.

 

Terry Herrington said:

BTW, how could someone who is reported to be as smart as John Calvin come up with such a doctrine as this?

He didn't.

One of these days I'm going to write a book about the myriad of silly things people believe about Calvinism. "Straw Calvinist arguments" such as

</font>

• Calvin came up with it.</font>
• Calvinists should read more Bible and less Calvin.</font>
• Calvin murdered Servetus, therefore we should not be Calvinists.</font>

are going at the top of the list.

 

This one will always be the funniest.

 

Elect- a. to select, b. to choose, c. chosen for for salvation through divine mercy, d. chosen for position but not yet installed, e. chosen for marriage at some future time (the elect bride), f. one chosen or set apart(as by divine favor)

Election-
a. an act or process of elected
b. the fact of being elected
c. predestination to eternal life

Chosen-
a. one who is the object of choice or of divine favor, an elect person
b. elect
c. selected or marked for favor

Taken from Webster's Collegiate Dictionary

by His Grace
mike

 

Not speaking directly to the doctrine, but to my relationship with people from the 2 viewpoints, I have learned to repeat to myself the following 2 phrases:

1. "The fact that he understands the doctrine of election does not make him elect."
&
2. "The fact that he does not understand the doctrine of election does not mean he is not elect."

The 1st phrase has helped me deal w/ a few reprobate "calvinists" that i have known.
The 2nd phrase has allowed me more fellowship over God's grace w/ people of opposing viewpoints.

jh

 

Romans 3:10-12 (NIV)
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

John 1:12-13 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Ultimately it is not a man’s will that produces salvation but God’s will. Prior to God’s will coming into play, we were:

Titus 3:3-5 (NIV)
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Romans 9:11-12 (ESV)11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call- 12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."

Romans 9:22-23 (ESV)22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. (1 Th 1:4-5 NIV)

Man's will participates in response to God's promptings as Paul makes clear when he says the Thessalonians received the Word. Two or more unsaved people may hear the same message of the gospel, but the power of the Holy Spirit comes upon only whom God chooses, and they are convicted.

Did you ever hear a powerful convicting sermon and say to yourself, "How could anybody hear that and not respond to God's call?" But the truth of the matter is, a number of unsaved people probably walked out the doors of your church that very day, unsaved and untouched by the message, because:

The god of this age (Satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor 4:4 NIV)

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (John 6:37 NIV) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 NIV)

The combination of v. 37a and v. 44 indicate that the divine drawing activity which Jesus referred to cannot be reduced to what theologians call "prevenient grace," i.e., that somehow the power to come to Christ is allegedly dispensed to all of mankind, thus enabling everyone to accept or reject the gospel according to their own will alone. Scripture indicates that no "free will" exists in man's nature, for man is enslaved to sin (total depravity) and unable to believe apart from God's empowerment (Rom. 3:1-19; Eph. 2:1-3; 2 Cor. 4:4; 2 Tim. 1:9).

It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. He did this not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan long before the world began--to show his love and kindness to us through Christ Jesus. (2 Tim 1:9 NLT)

Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV)
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:4-7 (NLT)
4 But then God our Savior showed us his kindness and love. 5 He saved us, not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit. 6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us because of what Jesus Christ our Savior did. 7 He declared us not guilty because of his great kindness. And now we know that we will inherit eternal life.

John 6:44 (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:27-30 (ESV)
27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This is a very compelling statement. “The Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” It is not what some theologians teach, that a person can choose God, and thus command the Holy Spirit to intercede! But rather, God invokes the Holy Spirit to intercede on His elect! Does scripture support this? Let’s see:

Ephesians 1:4-14 (NIV)
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:1-2 (NIV)
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Romans 9:14-22 (NIV)
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Acts 13:48 (NIV)
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed (Which implies: “all who were not appointed for eternal life did not believe, i.e. their hearts were hardened).

Psalm 139:15-16 (NIV)
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

And I repeat . . . All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Now to argue with what is written here is to argue with God, for 90% of it is direct quotations from scripture, in context I might add. To him/her who has eyes to see and ears to hear, let him/her see/hear!

 

I guess the argument has been settled then. Glad the centuries of debate can finaly be laid to rest......I'm being a wise guy not a real trouble maker. We all say we are reading scripture in context. But are we? We need to understand the ancient Jewish culture and mind. After that we must use a little common sense and logic. Would God realy feel pleasure in a people that love him because they couldn't do otherwise. Irresitable grace would nulify choise. Think about it. I tell you, you can have the steak and lobster on table A or the banana split on table B. Now the banana split has a inpenitrable black glass case over it. You go for the Steak because it is irresitable. The smell the sight and all. Now is that really a choise? Yes it is. Does that choise make the cook happy?......No, not really.

Yeah I know my analogy sucks but you see where I'm going don't you. Can God recieve pleaser if we choose to love him because he made us that way. Like a robot. If we have free will and the capacity to exercise it when he does draw us, then our love is ours to give. Giving our love to him is truly his ultimate plan.

Bertrand Russel wrote about how after his daughter was born he marveled at her tiny ears. He thought how they look to be designed by a desinger. He thought about her eyes.....Then he stopped himself. He felt if he stayed on this line of thought he would come to say "surly there must be a God". You see how God was drawing him. But he "stopped himself". His choice.........

 

Actually, the matter WAS settled long ago. Unfortunately, nobody remembers Church history, or wants to for that matter.

Rev. G

See: Pelagianism; Semi-Pelagianism

 

What we fail to factor in is that God was at the end and the beginning all at the same time...there is no time line for him...we are foreknow, predestined in God's sense, NOT ours.

We can't fully comprehend, or attempt to put the process in human terms. Again...can you describe a tree to a fetus? They have absolutely no point of reference...no thought of texture , color, or experience with which to form an idea of the nature of a tree.

So man needs to stop presuming to understand or define God's methods...we are told to take the gospel to the world, and that Christ died for the whole world.

How he chooses or justly elects is God's dominion and right, not ours to try and limit one way or another....just trust.