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Featured Eschatology - constructive, brotherly discussion

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Covenanter, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    On another thread Iconoclast wrote:

    Brethren, I would like to offer a simple reminder to each participant here. We are all interested is serving the Lord in truth.
    We have 4 views of these events here.

    I would like to have Ladd or Spurgeon here to represent Historic premill...but I am stuck with TC:oops:
    I would like to have Ryrie, or Pentecost here...but I find JOJ:eek:
    I would like to have Russell here,look at the screen to see Asteriktom:Sick
    Sam Waldron or Michael horton have not showed up here, but ian and a few others have.Confused
    Ken Gentry is not here...so you have yo put up with me:Roflmao
    let's take advantage and each one do their best to offer their view positively, and when we attack so to speak, attack the view not the persons as much..[which I can easily drift into.

    We all set sail in our endtimes boats...let see which ones can and cannot hold water. I have spent time in some of the other boats but have abandoned ship because i was not sure it was going to make it to safe harbor.
     
  2. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Attempts to prove false particular views have failed. This is a positive thread - please be constructive.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    There is a single Scripture view that is consistent with any statement from prophets.

    It is given by John.

    9Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”



    The Coming of Christ

    11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

    19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

    Satan Bound

    1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

    4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.



    Satan Freed, Doomed

    7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



    Judgment at the Throne of God

    11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
     
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  4. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Yes, Agedman, the Scripture stands true, though interpretations are different.
    I love the hymn "Crown him with many crown." The tune Diademata agrees with the crowns being diadems.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I positively believe preterism has been shown to be false and heresy.
     
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  6. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    And that is not the point of this thread.
     
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  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    What has always seemed to be the root of contention is the timeline or sequence of events.

    The more literal a person takes the statements of the lengthy posted passage, the more one cannot move from a specific premillennial return followed by a specific 1000 year millennium and final judgment.

    What, ultimately, I personally came to recognize is that every prophetic statement was literally fulfilled as it concerned the first advent, so why not hold that same consistency as a standard concerning the second.

    The only view consistent with that standard involved the exact timeline John gave in that lengthy portion I posted.
     
  8. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    John of Japan started this thread - now locked.

    I didn't really get involved with that thread - I hope we all agree on the glorious blessings of the NH&NE but there is a lot of confusion regarding the premil/rapture/tribulation doctrine as well as the position of the nation of Israel as distinct from Jews who have become Christians before the second coming.

    It would be helpful if these doctrines were clarified in a positive environment. They can be argued about in another thread - if someone opens it.
     
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  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The shallow Hollywood schemes based on popular writers may or may not serve the believer well, but the Scrptures of the last 4 chapters of the Revelation cannot be taken other than as stated by John.

    What John does in the revelations, is not write to Jews who greatly knew the OT prophetic statements, but to gentiles with no background in theology. This is why the book was to be read regularly in the churches, but was actually neglected and disregarded as not relative.

    That stated, the timeline John establishes in the last four chapters is very difficult to relegate to some opposing scheme if taken as literally.
     
  10. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Where is Israel in all this ....?

    God speaks of my people Israel with the relationship -
    Lev 26:12 - I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.

    Rev 21:3 - And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

    My people establishes a personal relationship with faithful believers so that Paul & Peter take a passage in Hosea about the fall & restoration of Israel as applying to Gentile believers also:
    Rom 9:26 - “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’
    There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

    1Pe 2:9 - But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
    1Pe 2:10 - who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
    We tend to think that Israel rejected their Messiah, but Acts records that many thousands believed & were baptised in Jesus' name from Pentecost onwards. Soon Gentiles were converted & were accepted into the church by the Jewish Christians, at first reluctantly.

    The epistles make it clear that, in Christ, we're are all one people of God. Jesus spoke of one flock & one Shepherd.

    Regardless of millennium views, many expect a large scale conversion of the Jews before the return of Christ. Dr Lloyd-Jones taught that, & my first Gospel Pastor wrote a booklet entitled "All Israel shall be saved."

    If that does take place, will they be a separate people? I heard McArthur declare very firmly, "The Church is not Israel & Israel is not the Church." I don't think he was talking about unbelievers.

    I disagree, I believe both Jews & Gentiles with a living faith in Christ will always be one redeemed people of God, but what do others think?
     
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  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Does not the Scriptures present the gentile believers as “grafted into” and not supplanting Israel?
     
  12. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Certainly - becoming one redeemed people.
     
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  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Which is why Paul is very specific to let gentiles know God will cause the Israeli people to understand the Gospel and return to Him by recognition of the messiah both as one who suffered and the King of Kings.

    Hence, the last four chapters of the Revelation taken as literal.
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    At the end of Psalm 22 we read this;
    25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

    26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

    27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

    28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

    29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

    30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

    31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.


    I see this as being a postmill text...The Lord ruling over the nations, people serving and making known His great salvation and works.
    People who are still experiencing physical death are said to bow before him, even before that time when they will be forced to.
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here is another postmill psalm speaking of the worldwide growth of the Kingdom
    72 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.

    2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

    3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

    4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

    5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

    6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

    7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

    8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

    9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him
    ; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

    10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

    11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

    12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

    13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

    14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.

    15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.

    16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.

    17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

    18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.

    19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

    20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In the book He Shall Have Dominion we read this;pg540,541


    Peter preaches this message with the burning hope that those who kill the Messiah will repent and receive consolation. Perhaps they would respond to him as did his Pentecost audience (Ac 2:37, 40–47). He promises them that if they repent Christ will yet come to them — in salvation: “that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you” (Ac 3:20).
    This means that “he should be again sent, in the power of his Spirit, to justify and save them.” Gill notes that he is sent “not in person, for this regards neither his first, nor his second coming, both which might be terrible to the awakened Jews; . . . but here it regards his being sent, and his coming in the ministration of the word, and by his spirit, to the comfort of their souls.

    Currently Christ is in heaven physically away from them;
    in fact, “heaven must receive [Him] until the times of restoration of all things” (3:21).

    Still, God promises to send him to them in salvation.

    Although he is in heaven, he is not beyond their reach for he comes to dwell in those who have faith in him (Jn 14:23; Eph 3:17).

    Gospel preaching brings the voice of the living Christ to the hearer (Eph 2:17; cf. Ro 10:14: “how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?”).

    This interpretation of the “sending” (apostello) of Jesus in salvation is no more awkward than is the second advent view, for nowhere else in Scripture is this wording used for either the sending of the Son in salvation or at the second advent.


    Though it is more precise to speak of the Father sending the Spirit in the gospel (Jn 14:26), we must understand that the Spirit’s sending results in the sending of the Son into the believer (Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6).


    In this context Peter focuses on what they did to Christ, who was perfectly subject to God.

    God fore-announced his
    63. Clarke, Clarke’s Commentary, 5:707. 64. Gill, Exposition of the New Testament, 8:168. 65. Lightfoot, Commentary on the New Testament, 4:40–41. Cf. Berkouwer, The Return of Christ, 151. 66. Here Peter uses apostello (to send on a mission) rather than the more mundane pempo (which appears in Jn 14:26; 15:26; and 16:7). He does so because the “sending” of Christ in the preaching of the gospel is an extension of God’s sending (apostello) Christ into the world on a mission (cf. Jn 3:17, 34–35; 5:36, 38; 6:38, 57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36).


    After all, the Son whom he sends into the world sends his apostles to promote his will (Mt 10:5; Jn 4:38; 17:18; 20:21) by sending them the promise of the Father (Lk 24:49). This idea appears again in Ac 3:26, where, after God “raised up His Servant,” he “sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”



    19: Biblical Objections
    incarnation (Ac 3:18); Christ is God’s “Servant” (3:13, 26), “His Christ” (3:18), “the prophet” whom God raises up (3:22). Hence the unusual manner of speaking: he is emphasizing the anointed Christ as the one who is subject to the Father and who is being sent on a commission to Israel (cp. Mt 10:5–6; 15:24; cp. 23:37).

    This particular sending of Christ does not await his second advent.
    Why would Peter tell the Jews that if they repent today, God will send the Son thousands of years later?
    He is presenting Christ to them at that very moment.



    In fact, Christ’s exaltation forever provides for the sending of the Son to lost sinners;

    this is particularly true for those to whom he is speaking: “When God raised up his Servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from his wicked ways” (Ac 3:26 NIV).


    Peter continues: Christ must remain in heaven “until the times of restoration of all things” (Ac 3:21a).

    Peter’s use of the word “until” is significant. It relates to Christ’s mediatorial kingdom in history. Wilmot’s point is on target: “The word ‘until’ which denotes that during these times the Lord Jesus will remain in the heavens, having been there ‘received’ upon His ascension, to the right hand of the majesty on high. This is the context.
    .’ The force of ‘until’ . . . makes the times of restitution simultaneous with Christ’s mediatorial session in heaven. He will come again not to introduce the restitution predicted by the prophets, but because He shall then have completed it.”
    This “restoration of all things” begins in the first century during the ministry of Christ.
    He will come again not to introduce the restitution predicted by the prophets, but because He shall then have completed it.”


    John Calvin notes in this regard that “Christ by His death has already restored all things . . , but the effect of it is not yet fully seen, because that restoration is still in process of completion, and so too our redemption.”

    In fact, Peter informs his auditors of the events begun in their time: “Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days” (Ac 3:24).

    This contemporary focus is also clear from Matthew 17:11, where John Baptist functions as an Elijah introducing the restoration of all things in the new covenant (cf. Mal 4:5–6). Maintaining a redemptive-historical perspective, Gill states that this refers to “the accomplishment of all promises and prophecies concerning the bringing in the fulness of the Gentiles, and the conversion of the Jews, and so the gathering in all the
    67. John Calvin, The Acts of the Apostles (CNTC), 6:103.
    542 He Shall Have Dominion
    elect of God; and concerning all the glorious things spoken of the church of Christ in the latter day.” Clarke explains that “it must be the accomp68 lishment of all the prophecies and promises contained in the Old Testament relative to the kingdom of Christ upon earth; the whole reign of grace, from the ascension of our Lord till his coming again.” This begins in the 69 first century. The restoration is a reformation that supplants the old order (Heb 9:10). It is a process leading to “the regeneration” of the fallen world as a system (Jn 1:29; 3:17; 4:42), where Christ’s will shall be done in earth (Mt 6:10) as his kingdom grows and spreads (Mt 13:31–33; 1Co 15:20–27). It will fulfill all things “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Ac 3:21), as in Isaiah 2:2–4; 9:1–7; 11:1ff. Thus, Acts 3:24–25 demonstrates that “these men of Israel who stood listening to Peter were ‘sons of the prophets’ — not in the OT sense of the words which denoted the professional prophetic guild, but in the sense that they were heirs of the promises made by God through the prophets, promises which had found their fulfillment before their very eyes. So, too, they were ‘sons of the covenant’ made by God with Abraham, and that in a special sense, for they had lived to see the day when that covenant came true in Christ: ‘In thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”’ Calvin writes: “I refer it to the whole period, 70 so that the sense is, that whatever he had said before regarding the Kingdom of Christ is witnessed to by all the prophets.”71
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    ” Clarke explains that “it must be the accomplishment of all the prophecies and promises contained in the Old Testament relative to the kingdom of Christ upon earth; the whole reign of grace, from the ascension of our Lord till his coming again.”

    This begins in the 69 first century. The restoration is a reformation that supplants the old order (Heb 9:10). It is a process leading to “the regeneration” of the fallen world as a system (Jn 1:29; 3:17; 4:42), where Christ’s will shall be done in earth (Mt 6:10) as his kingdom grows and spreads (Mt 13:31–33; 1Co 15:20–27). It will fulfill all things “which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began” (Ac 3:21), as in Isaiah 2:2–4; 9:1–7; 11:1ff. Thus, Acts 3:24–25 demonstrates that “these men of Israel who stood listening to Peter were ‘sons of the prophets’ — not in the OT sense of the words which denoted the professional prophetic guild, but in the sense that they were heirs of the promises made by God through the prophets, promises which had found their fulfillment before their very eyes. So, too, they were ‘sons of the covenant’ made by God with Abraham, and that in a special sense, for they had lived to see the day when that covenant came true in Christ: ‘In thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”’ Calvin writes: “I refer it to the whole period, 70 so that the sense is, that whatever he had said before regarding the Kingdom of Christ is witnessed to by all the prophets.”71 This fulfillment progressively grows during “the times” of the
     
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  18. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I find long posts quoting other people difficult to read. What main point(s) are you making? Does the one quoted speak with Biblical authority?

    What are you saying with all those words? Do you agree? What is God saying?

    When will the "69 first century" begin? What was restored? Was the Reformation anticipated in Scripture?

    Please, say what you saying, & give links if necessary, all supported by Scripture references. No need for extended quotes.

    I think those posts assert that Peter preached the Gospel of salvation by repentance & faith in Christ, expecting the Jews to respond positively. Christ was & is the fulfilment of prophecy & when we believe, we are heirs of God by faith. As Peter proclaimed in Acts 3:
    25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
     
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  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Thank you :Thumbsup
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    6 And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.
    7 And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.
    9 And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them that keep the words of this book: worship God.
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.
    12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
    20 He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22

    "Must shortly come to pass", "I come quickly", "seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book for the time is at hand", "I come quickly", "I come quickly"; all these actually mean 'thousands of years and still waiting', right?
     
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