Not the intent I read into it, jcf. Glad I asked first ;) .
Apparantly, we are on different sides on this issue. I doubt that I can convince you, and I know that you cannot convince me. But I really want to try to understand how anyone comes to the conclusion that salvation depends upon man keeping it himself.
In Christ,
Trotter
Eternal Security...The Wide Gate.
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jcf, Feb 3, 2005.
Page 6 of 10
-
We are able to grasp only a small portion of the magnificence of God. When we come to something about Him that is beyond our ability to understand we try to reason our way around it, but the result is a box too small to confine Him.
God seems to delight in paradox, have you noticed that? He who wants to live must die; he who wants to be greatest must be the servant of all, etc. God is certainly able to keep us from falling, and He will do so, if we allow it. He is not so insecure that He must keep all power in His own hands. He gave to us something very powerful - choice. And He does not take our choice away once we become His. He desires love freely given, and any compulsion on His part would destroy that freedom. And so the paradox - eternal security and the danger of falling away. Both true. Do I understand it? No. But I am able to accept things about God that are too great for me to understand.
To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
The Holy Bible : New International Version. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984. Jud 24-25. -
I've read all the posts in this thread with interest. I believe that Eternal Security is true and sound doctrine. The biggest argument against it seems to be the idea that somebody can basically walk away from salvation and lose it.
For those of you who believe this, how do you reconcile Galatians 2:20 and Hebrews 13:5 with this idea?
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Hebrews 13:5
"... for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
So, if Christ lives in me, and he said that he would never leave me, how is it possible that I could walk away from salvation, thus losing it?
Thanks!
Chris -
Salvation Security doctrine
is about the faithfulness
of God. Salvation insecurity doctrine
is about the perfidy of humans. -
We are to crucify ourselves daily, in other words, if we seek our our personal agenda (life) we will lose it. But if we by crucifying the flesh we will save our life.
Luke 9:23-24 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily , and follow Me. "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
God will never leaving or forsaking us is not an eternal security verse but rather and ecouragment verse and is taken from Deuteronomy.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness, and be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you.''
In the Hebrews God is telling us not to be covetosness because we have God and He will never leave us if we don't turn from His in covetousness. We find the same promises and warning in Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 31:6 "Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.''
When God's people went into the land they began worshiping false gods and God forsook and left them.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18 "Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' "And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods. -
Our salvation begins, continues, and culminates in God, not man/us. Salvation is by grace, not works. Grace is what God does. Works are what we do. So, who is holding your salvation? I know Who is holding mine.
In Christ,
Trotter -
Romans 12:1 1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Ephesians 5:1-3 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
Philippians 2:16-18 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.
-
Our salvation begins, continues, and culminates in God, not man/us. Salvation is by grace, not works. Grace is what God does. Works are what we do. So, who is holding your salvation? I know Who is holding mine.
In Christ,
Trotter </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Trotter,
One of the problems people have is that they define salvation as a ticket they get punched. The Scriptures do not teach this. What we do find in Scripture is salvation being a work in us by God. It's a work that we can neglect.
Hebrews 2:1-3 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
The words of Jesus to the abiding believer is what brings about salvation in a person life, salvation from sin.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Can we still sin during God's saving work within us, can we turn away from God's saving work in the believer? Yes we can but not without loosing the joy and peace that comes from being right with God. There will be conviction and burden upon us because of our willfull sin in order to turn us back to God and His work of salvation. The wage of sin has it's effect on everyone, believer and nor believer. There is a process that takes place within us if we don't repent and be graffted back into the life giver, Jesus.
James 1:14-16 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. -
-
I John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
This verse says that I can know I have eternal life. Other people tell me that I can't know that I have eternal life. Help me understand how you explain I John 5:13.
I posted the question earlier about Jesus Christ living in me and that he would never leave me. I was told that the Hebrews quote meant something different than what I thought, so I have another question. What about this?
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus said here that he would be with us always, which is what I thought was said in Hebrews 13:5, but I've been told differently. Hebrews 13:5 and Matthew 28:20 may not be inherently referring to Eternal Security, but when taken into consideration with the idea of Jesus living in me, how does that not apply to Eternal Security?
Thanks!
Chris -
And please explain how we can evict the Holy Spirit Who takes up residence within us?
And please explain how the sacrifice of Christ is insufficient to maintain eternal security?
And please explain why Jesus lied to Nicodemas in John chapter 3?
In Christ,
Trotter -
It seems to me that Jesus did not lie to Nicodemas. "He who practices the truth comes from the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God".
Jesus never claimed salvation for those who are not God's. -
-
I just lost a big post again. I'm not patient enough to post it again, but I will give you the verses I used. I'll explain them later if you don't see the message I was trying to bring:
Try reading 1 Corinthians 4:4-5 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
Matthew 13:18-23 Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” -
If you are continuing to say that we aren't justified immediately at the time of salvation, then I don't agree with that. I'm not entirely sure where you're going with these verses, so additional explanation would be great. I will patiently await your explanation.
Thanks!
Chris -
5 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.Click to expand...
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.Click to expand... -
Five Judgements
The Lord God is a judging God
"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:
A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)
The Five Judgements:
1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus
How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):
Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."
2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus
3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation
4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age
5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment
NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!
--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque -
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Five Judgements
The Lord God is a judging God
"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:
A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)
The Five Judgements:
1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus
How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):
Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."
2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus
3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation
4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age
5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment
NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!
--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus PhreaqueClick to expand...
Hebrews 3:1-18 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? -
Ed,
Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."Click to expand...
We are warned many times in the Bible that lip service is meaningless. If you want to clarification of what Romans 3:16 means, read the part that I put in bold in my post: February 16, 2005 12:21 AM.
If you are correct then I wish you were around during Paul's time so that you could correct him. -
Eladar, the verses you bolded are found in John, not Romans. John, not Paul, was quoting what Jesus said to Nicodemus.
If there is some other meaning of Romans 10:9, please explain, because it seems pretty plain in meaning to me.
Finally, please explain how the blood of Jesus isn't sufficient to wash my sins away. If you get done with that, then please explain why Jesus suffered like he did and shed his blood for us if it wasn't enough to accomplish our salvation.
Thanks!
Chris
Page 6 of 10