Both Calvinists and Arminians know that in real life the way to evangelize is to tell the audience - "God loves you. Jesus died for you. The Holy Spirit is convicting you of sin and righteousness and judgment. Please choose to accept the Gospel invitation."
and most importantly " As ambassadors of Christ we BEG YOU to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.
We all know - this is the only method that works in real life.
Question - how much of that is honest and consistent for the Arminian Evangelist?
How much of it would be false advertising for the 5 point Calvinist?
If there is a Calvinist way to claim that this is consistent doctrine for Calvinists - then how so??
in Christ,
Bob
Evangelism
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Oct 19, 2013.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Nowhere can you ever find "The Holy Spirit is convicting YOU" Nowhere can you ever find where anyone ever said "Please choose to accept the Gospel invitation.' Nowhere.
How do I evangelize? I invite sinners to come to Christ for salvation. I tell them Christ died for sinners but Christ did not come to save the righteous! I invite those who are hungry, weary, burdened with sin to come to Christ and find rest. I NEVER TELL THEM that "YOU" are such as no one knows that to be true but God and the individual. -
Biblicist is correct. We have no right to add to the Gospel message. We cannot personalize the Gospel as though we have perfect knowledge that it applies to any specific person. When I share or preach the Gospel I implore the hearer to repent and believe, but I cannot tell them God loves them while they are in open rebellion against Him. God does not just hate sin, He hates the unconverted sinner.
Do I preach the Gospel believing that all who hear can believe? YES! Do I implore them to do so? YES! The fact that not all can and not all will does not lessen the power of the message or my desire to preach it. -
"God loves you. Jesus died for you. Ask Jesus into your heart today because God has a wonderful plan for your life.
However -- and I say this with much regret and sadness -- should you not ask Jesus into your heart and die tomorrow, God will have no other choice but to change His plan and throw you into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone where you will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
So pleeeeease......do not let this happen. God loves you. I beg you....bow your heads now. Recite this unbiblical Sinners' Prayer in sincerity and you will be saved.........!" -
For those who believe the 2Cor 5 text below is not in the Bible -- we have news...
2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God
For those believe that neither "we" nor "they" are in the world - the Bible text above - "has news".
In the text it is the evangelist that is pleading with the lost to be reconciled to God - the saved have already chosen to be reconciled to God. Obviously.
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For those who believe that the John 16 statement below is not in the Bible - we have news.
John 16
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
For those who believe that they are not in the world - I have news.
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Someone here has posted "We have no right to add to the Gospel message"
Indeed we have no right to "take away" from that Gospel either.
Hence this post.
in Christ,
Bob -
I think we both have seen that in these recent posts.
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God
The wild assumption that "world" in this broad sense does not include the lost is hard to swallow.
in Christ,
Bob -
Bob,
The difficulty faced in interpreting 2 Corinthians 5:19 is the pigeon-hole effect. If someone believes that God was in Christ reconciling the entire ["entire" without qualification] world to Himself, then they are taking a Universalist view. A qualification about the word "world" cannot be taken in such an interpretation. According to this interpretation Paul sets up a contradiction in verse 20. Why make an appeal to be reconciled to God if God is already reconciling the entire world to Himself? The appeal of reconciliation becomes unnecessary since God is in the process of doing it (v. 19). Believe it or not there are some passages that should not serve as proof texts for Arminianism or Calvinism.
I read 2 Corinthians 5 in a straightforward fashion. We know the epistle is being written to "the Church of God which is at Corinth" (1:1). This means it is being written to believers. But the Apostle knew that not all in the visible church at Corinth were actually believers. Thus his appeal in 5:20, "we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." This also serves as a warning to those who would presume on their salvation without the evidence of being regenerated. Later on in the epistle Paul writes in 13:5, "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you - unless indeed you fail the test?" -
Thanks. -
It would be false advertising to some advertising for the 5 point view (although not all, but the “not all” would be seen as fake Calvinists by others).
There is a Calvinistic way to claim that this is consistent doctrine for Calvinists. First, God’s love for man does not mean that God does not love those condemned – this is a perversion of Divine Love. Second (and more difficult for a 5 point Calvinist), not all Calvinists reject the idea of Christ as a propitiation for the sins of the world. In that sense, Christ died for everyone – although this view culminates in condemnation for the non-elect (Christ died to redeem only the elect). Third, the Holy Spirit is convicting everyone of sin and righteousness and judgment. I’d argue that people who adhere to non-Christian religion are convicted of sin, and they are seeking salvation in some form based on their own righteousness.
Finally, the sinner does have to accept the Gospel invitation, but a Calvinist could argue that (although there is an element of human responsibility in the salvation process) this acceptance is the grace of God. Spurgeon, for example, preached that if you are convicted and are genuinely being led to Christ then you are elect and need to accept the Gospel invitation – it is for you (I think of the "Come and Drink" sermon). Another example would be Timothy Keller.
Now, if you mean if there is a Calvinist way to claim such with the majority of the Calvinists on the BB, then probably not. :smilewinkgrin: -
2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God
How can the 4 and 5 point Calvinist ever justify saying that to his audience " we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"
So the Calvinist may honestly call out "I am certain God loves some of the lost - and predestines that one day in the future they will be saved. Who knows - maybe you are one of those that God loves. "
Bob -
The quote is from "Biblicist" or "DrWalter"?
And can be found here --
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2042551&postcount=2
in Christ,
Bob -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God
?? Really?? "we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"
Does that help?
As Paul points out in both Romans 9 and 11 - his Gospel evangelism is for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles.
in Christ,
Bob -
1. God loves all sinners equally
2. God intended death of jesus as atonement for all sinners!
3. that salvation based upon my will and response
Better way to state this to sinners would be:
Jesus died on the Cross as the sin bearer, as for the propiation to God for sinners such as you and I, and as per Apsotle paul,NOW is the aceeptable day of salvation, receive Jesus today and be saved and given a new nature by Him today!
Look to Him and be saved! -
"God so Loved the WORLD that HE gave His only begotten son" - yes really.
Not "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 that He gave -- and the rest of the world He really does not care about".
Along with 1John 4 "God sent His Son to the Savior of the WORLD".
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation
2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Have you read the context of 1 and 2 Corinthians at all????????? Apparently not! This was one of the most DIVIDED congregations in the first century and in great need of INTERNAL reconciliation with each other and with God BECAUSE church members cannot be unreconciled with each other and yet be reconciled to God. Reconciliation between the membership and between the membershhip and God was the very issue the forms the basis for Paul writing these letters.
Does that help? -
Originally Posted by BobRyan
2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God
So then you are happy with 4 and 5 point Calvinists making the appeal TO THE Lost - in the form "20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"
I think there are some that might be willing to stop and take into account the fact that this totally cannot be shoehorned into Calvinism.
And that is called "evangelism".
Turns out that process of turning the lost into the saved - is key to evangelism and the form it takes is "we beg YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God".
A distinctively Arminian foundation.
in Christ,
Bob -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Originally Posted by BobRyan
2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God
So then you are happy with 4 and 5 point Calvinists making the appeal TO THE Lost - in the form "20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"
To you expect to be taken seriously with that eisgete into the text?
Paul was just speaking to Baptists?
Just speaking to the saved members of the church already having chosen the Gospel -- and he is "begging THEM" ---- for what???
(This had better be good. :) )
in Christ,
Bob -
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