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Featured Every Believer Must Do Good Works and Proclaim the Gospel, Some Are Called to Teach

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by christiang, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. christiang

    christiang Member

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  2. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    Can you post the information here? I don't like to click through links to other sites.
     
  3. christiang

    christiang Member

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    Raise the post limit or put no limit at all, and then sure, I will gladly do so.
     
  4. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    I don't understand what the issue is. Discuss. Write what you want us to know and we will read it. There is no post limit. Just start typing and post.
     
  5. christiang

    christiang Member

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    I just tried. Says "post is too long, try shortening it." If I could post the study here I would.
     
  6. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    Then post in multiple posts. You just need to wait like a minute between posts. So post one.....
     
  7. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    ...and then another...
     
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Faith Alone is one extreme I don't agree with,

    2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


    Works Alone is another extreme that isn't good either.

    3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.



    You are close, but missing the priority. The priority is not salvation.

    You said: "every believer must bear good fruit, which means to to good works, and whoever does not do good works will be cut off."

    If you are not doing good works....you are ALREADY CUT OFF. Good works is not a CHORE or a JOB, it is the treasure itself.

    But even people who are EVIL are treasure to a person who is Good, especially those who were Evil themselves fully appreciate things like good works.

    A pure repentance based on gratitude rather then guilt.


    Someone can be pure evil, the moment they are confronted for it that is a mercy from God. If they are cut off without mercy they would get a bumpless ride without suffering down that spiral into the abyss.


    All evil acts are guaranteed acts of immaturity. All evil acts require ignorance for fuel.

    Look back in life , ever did something bad you regret? Would you do it again right now?

    The only thing that separates that guy from then, is what this guy knows now. In short if you knew then what you know now you would not repeat the same evil.

    The devil knows more from being old and ancient than from just being the devil.
     
  9. christiang

    christiang Member

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    The priority is not salvation? Who labors in a field without hope and expectation of a harvest? If the yield of the righteous was the same as the yield of the wicked, what purpose would there be in being righteous? We labor and toil in doing good works in the faith and expectation of a future reward that we do not currently see, but hope for. That is the difference between the good works of the righteous, as opposed to the good works of the wicked, who do it to glorify themselves.
     
  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I love God, My neighbors, and you, for free.

    I fell in love with the command before it was a command.

    If I was guaranteed HELL for helping you out, I'm going to help you brother.

    If the whole world hates you and you have never done anything good ever, I'm going to help you brother.


    "If the yield of the righteous was the same as the yield of the wicked, what purpose would there be in being righteous?"

    You got few troublesome righteous who can only equate their good yield by the redemption of the wicked, who they would even call their greatest treasure.

    The man who loves everyone won't settle for a heaven who doesn't have everyone there.


    The terror of a selfish person is putting them in eternal torture,

    But the one's who loves others, who places others before himself, the self-less, if you want him in hell you don't aim at him at all, in fact you can give him all the joy of Disney Land and Paradise, you want him to suffer you aim at those he cares for, there is no greater hell.

    When you have someone who actually matters more then yourself pass away in your arms. It just doesn't matter what reward or torture is hung around your neck. You start seeing soul to soul and the importance of one word between us.

    I rather serve in hell with a love that never dies, then rule all of heaven with apathy towards my brethren.

    If you can name one thing different between Love and God, that is good proof you still have plenty to learn about both.
     
  11. christiang

    christiang Member

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    Is that so? Tell me, have you sold all your possessions for the sake of humility? Have you devoted your daily life to the service of others for the sake of bearing good fruit? Have you partaken in the sufferings of Jesus Christ and the apostles for the sake of the kingdom of God? It is a combination of all these things why we hope for reward. If there was no hope for reward, for resurrection, then reducing yourself to little possessions, suffering for the sake of Christ, and living in service of others by doing good works would all be in vain, for let us drink for we die tomorrow! And as Paul says, we would be the most pitiable of all men, if there was no hope for resurrection, which is part of the reward. Many of you are quick to say, "I will do good no matter if there is reward or not", as if to imply that your righteousness is greater than those who labor in faith for a future reward, but you haven't even done what is actually required to enter into the kingdom of God after believing, the selling your possessions, the suffering, and living in complete devotion to the service of others, so your "I will do good no matter what" is only in word, not in actual action. Anyone can say, "I will die for you brother", but when it comes down to doing the deed when a precarious situation presents itself, they run away like cowards. Read these other studies so you can understand what the narrow path entails, for it is not just good works,

    Repentance and Sin No More, Perfection and Born of the Spirit | Wisdom of God
    The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished | Wisdom of God
    Humility and Sell Your Possessions and Properties | Wisdom of God
    Suffering, Persecution, Martyrdom, and the Discipline of God | Wisdom of God

    The difference between the labor of the righteous versus the labor of the wicked is that while both work for reward, the wicked work for reward they can acquire immediately, whereas the righteous labor for reward they do not see, from faith, which is why the labor of the righteous is superior. Take for example a nurse, who helps the sick, they receive their wages for the good they do and have received full payment for what they do, as opposed to someone who sells everything they have, and gives half their possessions to the poor, in the hope of a future payment from God, that they do not see, but hope for, this is from faith, which is why it is superior.
     
    #11 christiang, Nov 18, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  12. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    You mention the apostle Paul; wasn't it he that wrote to the Ephesians, telling them that we are saved by grace, and not of works?
     
  13. christiang

    christiang Member

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    You confuse "saved by grace, not of works" to mean that we do not have to do good works, but it is not that way, for because of predestination is why we are saved by favor, not of works. Meaning there was nothing we did to become saved, but rather, salvation came by a choice of God before the foundation of the world, before we were even born to do good, or to do evil. This is why it is called "favor", because it was a simple choice of God to grant mercy, even though he doesn't have to, and he does not choose to grant mercy to all. And it is from this choice of God to grant mercy to those that believe, it is then necessary for those who believe to perform good works, otherwise their belief is dead, for even our father of faith, Abraham, who believed, did works worthy of his belief. Stop deceiving yourselves into thinking you do not need to do good works, for every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down. This means that if you do not do good works you will be cut off.
     
  14. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Well, that's a confusion of theological positions I haven't run across before.

    You've set up a presumption, which is a logical fallacy. "Deceiving yourselves into thinking you do not need to do good works" is a false premise. I in no way whatsoever think that good works are not something we should do.

    To continue the passage from Ephesians, the next verse says we are saved unto good works; not because of or by them.

    But where your theology mixes and creates confusion is where you say we are predestined to be saved; but if we don't do good works, that predestination is rescinded.

    We are not saved by our works; our works are because we're saved. And anyone who is saved will do works. James wrote that faith without works is dead; in other terms, faith without works is not faith. In other words, no works means no salvation. Salvation precedes works.

    What you're presenting is that we must always be fearful of losing our salvation; but Hebrews 10 tells us we don't have to worry. We are not of those that believe for a while, but fall away when faced with troubles; but we believe to the saving of our soul. And that's the type of faith James is talking about: a saving faith, that results in a desire and want to do good works, rather than out of fear.

    Because ultimately, James wasn't preaching about works; he was preaching about salvation.
     
  15. christiang

    christiang Member

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    Nothing that God has predestined to occur is ever "rescinded". If you fail to do good works, then it was because God predestined you to do so, and to make you as an example of one who believed, yet later gave up doing good works, and was subsequently destroyed. This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, because it is ultimately God who decides who will be saved, and who will not. Those who God chose to be saved will have all the characteristics of one who is saved, belief, good works, suffering, humility, where if any of these are missing, it is simply because God did not chose that person. It is God who works inside us what we will and what we do, and outside us what circumstances happen to us. Not one cell in your body divides unless God appointed it so. Now, there is a point in time in your walk with the Lord where your fear of him then becomes assurance in him, and it is when you receive the guarantee of your salvation, which is the seal of the holy spirit. Then and only then is it known you are actually chosen and saved, and you cannot lose salvation at this point, for the baptism of the holy spirit will free you from the sinful nature you were conceived in, and cause you to walk perfectly before God in this mortal body. Not many reach this full stature of Christ, hence, "many are called, few chosen", and for various reasons, such as the teaching of "works are not necessary because we have faith". There are many lies that prevent believers from entering into salvation. Read these studies,

    Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice | Wisdom of God
    Repentance and Sin No More, Perfection and Born of the Spirit | Wisdom of God
    Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Power, Prophesying, New Languages, Signs, Miracles, Wonders | Wisdom of God
     
  16. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Following the calvinistic line there -- the way Hebrews 10 would read, we are not of those that God is using as an example; but we are those who God has instilled belief to the saving of the soul. Correct?

    If works are a characteristic of one who is saved -- then you just contradicted your opening post premise that one must do good works in order to be saved.

    Or have I misunderstood your original premise?
     
  17. christiang

    christiang Member

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    You have indeed misunderstood, for God predestined who will be saved BEFORE anyone did any works, hence,

    So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

    though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:11-13 [ESV])

    even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])

    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30 [NIV])

    Where those he chose WILL DO GOOD WORKS AFTER BELIEVING,

    For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10 [NIV])

    If you do not do good works, it is because you were not chosen in the first place. Predestination is why no one is saved by works, because the choice of God to save someone came long before anyone did any works to begin, even before the foundations of the world. But because this choice came before works does not mean works are not required of you, for the purpose of his election is for you TO DO GOOD WORKS,

    so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, (Colossians 1:10 [NIV])

    And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. (2 Corinthians 9:8 [ESV])

    Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work. (2 Timothy 2:21 [ESV])

    that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:17 [ESV])

    And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. (Hebrews 13:16 [NIV])

    Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
    (James 3:13 [ESV])

    who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. (Titus 2:14 [ESV])

    Do everything you can to help Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their way and see that they have everything they need. Our people must learn to devote themselves to doing what is good, in order to provide for urgent needs and not live unproductive lives.
    (Titus 3:13-14 [NIV])

    Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. (1 Peter 4:10 [NIV])

    They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, (1 Timothy 6:18 [ESV])

    If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. (1 John 3:17-18 [NIV])

    Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, (Titus 3:1 [ESV])

    remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 1:3 [ESV])

    So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. (1 Peter 4:19 [NIV])

    Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense, not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel, but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.
    (1 Timothy 2:9-10 [HCSB])

    Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:58 [ESV])

    but both first to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, and all the region of Judea, and to the Gentiles, I kept declaring to repent and to turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance. (Acts 26:20 [BLB])

    To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give aeonial* life. (Romans 2:7 [MODIFIED-NIV])*

    Interlinear Links: *αἰώνιον (aeonial), Romans 2:7

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21 [ESV])

    “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. (Ezekiel 16:49-50 [NIV])

    Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” (Luke 14:12-14 [NIV])

    So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. (Galatians 6:10 [ESV])

    Share with the saints who are in need… (Romans 12:13 [BSB])

    All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along. (Galatians 2:10 [NIV])

    this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: that you be driven away from mankind and your dwelling place be with the beasts of the field, and you be given grass to eat like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven; and seven periods of time will pass over you, until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes. And in that it was commanded to leave the stump with the roots of the tree, your kingdom will be assured to you after you recognize that it is Heaven that rules. Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: break away now from your sins by doing righteousness and from your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, in case there may be a prolonging of your prosperity.’ (Daniel 4:24-27 [NASB])

    Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh? Then shall your light break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up speedily; your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard. Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer; you shall cry, and he will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness, (Isaiah 58:6-9 [ESV])

    Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered. (Proverbs 21:13 [ESV])

    Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to act. Do not say to your neighbor, “Come back tomorrow and I’ll give it to you”– when you already have it with you. (Proverbs 3:27-28 [NIV])

    “Wash yourselves, and make yourselves clean; remove your evil behavior from my presence; stop practicing what is evil. Learn to practice what is good; seek justice, alleviate oppression, defend orphans in court, and plead the widow’s case. “Please come, and let’s reason together,” implores the LORD. “Even though your sins are like scarlet, they’ll be white like snow. Though they’re like crimson, they’ll become like wool. (Isaiah 1:16-18 [ISV])

    Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (1 Timothy 5:8 [NIV])

    WHERE IF YOU FAIL TO DO GOOD WORKS, ITS BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T CHOSEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. FOR EVERY TREE THAT GOD DETERMINED TO BE HIS WILL BEAR GOOD FRUIT.
     
  18. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    I have no disagreement with works becquse of salvation; my questioning was with your opening post, which made it sound as if we must do good works to stay saved.
     
  19. christiang

    christiang Member

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    You must continue to do good works to stay saved, hence,

    And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. (Galatians 6:9 [ESV])
     
  20. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    If this is true, then our salvation is based on our works - and it is no longer a gift but an earned reward or a wage. That is not Biblical.
     
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