Remember, the story of the Garden is an allegory. Snakes don't talk, and never did. Immortality doesn't come from a tree. God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree, and yet Adam lived on for many years after.
"Eating from the tree" is just the way the Bible deals with us becoming able to understand good and evil.
Change indeed. Not only the ability to understand good and evil, but also the Breath of Life, which transformed us into immortal beings. But one, God gave to us by natural means, and the other by supernatural means. This is what He is telling us when He says that man was made (like the other animals) from the earth, but also has been given an immortal soul, which changes everything.
Good question. Could God have assured that humans would not sin? Sure. Picture God telling Adam that he can enjoy all things, except "don't touch that tree over there". You don't have to be God, to know what was going to happen next. And then He puts a talking snake into the garden to make sure.
Notice that, as God observes, the knowledge of good and evil makes Adam like Him. This is a necessary thing, if God is going to share the wonder of His creation with us. But it's a painful step, and we cannot by ourselves, make the next step that would permit us to be with Him.
That's why He sent a Savior.
Evolution Corrupts the Gospel
Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by BobRyan, Apr 18, 2003.
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The Garden of Eden is not an allegory, Barbarian/Galatian -- it's just that you need to think about it that way so you can keep your evolutionary beliefs from being disturbed.
The truth is, when something is being presented as an allegory in the Bible, it is stated as such. In Ezekiel 17:2 we see the Lord saying "Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell the house of Israel a parable." Allegories and parables are clearly delineated throughout the Bible.
Genesis is presented as straightforward history, start to finish. It should be accepted or rejected on its own terms, not on terms you or anyone else choose to impose upon it. -
Well said, and thanks again Helen.
If the straightforward reading of Genesis 1-3 is not what most Christians believe these days, oh God let me remain in the remnant that takes Him at His word.
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Helen wrote:
However, many people, including Christians such as myself, do not share this assumption about the Bible. I see the Bible as embodying the response of two societies, the ancient Israelites and the early Christian community, to their (very real) experience of God. It was written by humans and remains a human product, although it had its origins in its authors’ experience of the Divine. On this view, Genesis 1-3 is the ancient Israelites’ story of the beginning of the world, not God’s story.
When you are speaking to Christians who share your view of the Bible, you can safely base your reasoning on the assumption that the Bible comes from God. Here and in other discussion forums where Christians of other flavors participate, you cannot base your arguments on your view of the Bible and expect the dissenters to buy into your line of reasoning.
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A question worth considering: Why does the Christian tradition speak of the Bible as the Word of God, not the words of God? -
63 times in the KJV New Testament we find the phrase "it is written". 7 times in the KJV New Testament we find the phrase "have ye not read".
I haven't even tried to count how many times it is written (there's that phrase again) in the Old Testament, "thus sayeth the Lord".
When originally written by those men under under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, those words were exactly what God wanted to be written.
The Confession of 1689 puts it, "Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures 4._____ The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God. ( 2 Peter 1:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9 )"
Taken collectively, the Bible is the Word of God.
Taken individually, all of the words in the original autographs are the Words of God. -
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If your "point" is to show "the KEY and salient points of evolutionism established as fact" then do so.
Please try again.
Bob -
quote:Bob points out the defects of compromised Christian evolutionism.
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There is no fall of mankind from a perfect sinless state.
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As stated before "EvolutionISM corrupts the Gospel".
Our friend galation is up for "poster child" on that count.
quote: Bob identifies ANOTHER corruption of the Gospel brought to us by evolutionism.
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There is no need to restore mankind back to that high and lofty state from which he fell.
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must be SAVED for he has turned into a sentient being having a conscience and knowledge of GOOD vs Evil. God must SAVE HIM. God must now RESCUE mankind since he has FALLEN from that blood thirsty brute beast that he once WAS. So God REDEEMS mankind BACK via the substitutionary death of Christ --- so that ultimately man CAN be just a brute beast once again. REDEEMED BACK by the sacrifice of Christ".
EvolutionISM - corrupts the gospel in layers.
quote: Bob emphasize the TRUE attack upon the Gospel that evolutionism sets up.
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The very concept of "the Savior" is void.
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What a tragic distortion of the Gospel is EvolutionISM.
quote:Bob points out further abuses of the Gospel handed to compromised christian Evolutionists.
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The NT arguments that Paul and Christ made BASED on the "DETAILS" of Gen 1-3 are "void".
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"SIX DAYS you shall labor and do all your work and REST the seventh day.... FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and all that are in them and RESTED the seventh day".
Exodus 20:8-11.
God appeals EXPLICITLY to the DETAILS of Gen 1-2 in arguing FOR that commandment. His statement requires acceptance of HIS OWN summary of that event.
A summary that evolutionism can not swallow - even remotely. A summary NOT contained in parable or allegory or poetic form.
Evoltionism - is denied.
Christ states that God made mankind MALE and FEMAIL - and gave them marriage - quoting the DETAILS of Gen 2.
Paul states that ADAM was created first AND THEN Eve. He adds that Eve was FIRST DECEIVED. DETAILS that evolutionism CAN NOT accept.
Paul DENIES that ADAM made FIRST - SINNED by virtue of the fact that HE WAS the FIRST sentient human capable of independant thought knowing good and evil. Paul claims that simply BEING human instead of beast - WAS NOT 'the FALL'.
quote:Bob points out the Exodus 20 summary of Gen 1-2 as it emphasized DETAILS
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The Arguments that God makes from His own Law - appealing to Gen 1-3 "DETAILS" are void.
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Galation never tires of less-than-insightful non-responses "Ditto."
quote:Bob points out the EXPLICIT language of James 2
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And in the NT - voiding ONE part of the LAW - nullifies all of it according to James.
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Galation is unnable to address the point - so his non-response follows in the form of "Ditto."
Proving TWO points.
Compromised Christian evolutionism NOT ONLY corrupts the Gospel, it apparently hampers the ability of compromised Christian proponents to understand the argument.
Can there be corner left for evolutionism? Can there be any remaining doubt as to its utter corruption of the Christian Gospel?
In Christ,
Bob -
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It would seem that instead of men evolving up from brute beasts, that some go the other way according to the scripture found in Jude 10.
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Helen, the link you provided quotes an article by Trevor Major as follows:
"Radiocarbon dating assumes that the carbon-12/carbon-14 ratio has stayed the same for at least the last hundred thousand years or so"
The quote simply is not true. The radiocarbon dating labs do not assume that the ratio of the two carbons has stayed the same. In fact, the reason for using dendochronology and other methods is to correct for the fact that the C-12/C-14 ratio has changed. Also, Setterfield's claim that such corrections are not valid is a claim that is without merit. More recently the C-14 method has been calibrated using lake sediments stretching back more than 40,000 years.
The false information given by Trevor Major (above) is interesting because he discusses the dendochronology work but somehow does not seem to understand that the need for it is required by recognition that the C-12/C-14 ratio does vary with time! I can attribute this contridiction only to his lack of knowledge of the method. In other words, he discusses the use of correction methods by mainstream science and then says, in effect, that mainstream science claims not to require a calibration method! The calibration method, using tree rings, would not be required at all if the assumption of C-12/C-14 were actually used. -
>>>>>>>>>In the case of old-earth geochronometers such as some of the radiometric clocks - the problem is the "starting conditions" have to be "assumed" rather than "proven". And of course - atheism makes the "assumption" of no radioactive daughter products and a non-useful parent product - because they don't "need" a living-planet to start with.<<<<<<
BobRyan,
I believe those words are your above. Your statements above are not correct. There are radiometric methods that do not assume certain starting conditions and do not assume zero radioactive daughter products. There are really many methods, and if you want to talk about them, you should specify which methods you are talking about. The fact is that you are no specialist in this area and have very little background to speak with any knowledge on the methods. -
Assuming that man is less evil than animals with no sense of good or evil, is contrary to everything God tells us in Scripture.
This is a perfect example of the way a literal interpretation of Genesis tends to lead one away from God's word. Yes, even BEASTS are innocent, relative to man. Man fell from that state of innocence by gaining a knowledge of good and evil, as God tells us.
Denying it is pointless. -
JamesJ wrote:
I would add that I believe that the Bible was written as a response to its authors’ real experience of God, and that the Bible is revelatory of God – it discloses God’s nature to us. The Spirit often speaks to us when we read the Bible. But that is a long way from saying that the contents of the Bible are “what God says.”
The belief that God essentially wrote the Bible and that the Bible is “what God says” has a number of serious consequences for Christianity:
1. There is the head-on collision with modern science that we are discussing in this forum.
2. The laws of ancient Israel are seen as God’s laws. Those laws contain a prohibition against wearing garments made of two kinds of cloth, the death penalty for homosexual sex, and other strictures that we supposedly must accept as God’s law. Some passages in the Bible (e.g. I Timothy 2:9-15) support the subordination of women.
3. The Bible contains such stories as the following:
Richard -
2 Peter 1:19-21 reads: We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
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>>>>>>If your "point" is to show "the KEY and salient points of evolutionism established as fact" then do so.<<<<<<<<
No, I am not attempting to show that evolution is established as a fact. What I did show is that various objections that you have raised, to an old earth, are in fact mistaken. -
Galation observes:
Of course there is. The Bible tells you what it is. It is the knowledge of good and evil. Animals lacking this understanding are perfect and sinless. They cannot sin, because they are incapable of understanding evil. So the Fall was the aquisition of the knowledge of good and evil.
See above. Man, upon understanding good and evil, becomes like God in that respect, but being unable to be completely good, is only potentially able to have fellowship with Him.
Galation observes:
Nonsense. Any theistic evolutionary POV would require a Savior for just that reason.
But you're assuming that they agree with your particular interpretation of Genesis, and you have given us no reason to believe that is true.
But if you can't actually show it says what you say it says, then it's pointless.
Let God decide. And then you will be at peace with His creation. And yourself.
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