How does that differ from the faith of a muslim in understanding their Koran and their disposition to believe what they understand? Why is that lie understandable while the powerful life giving truth remains unattainable?
You are just giving unbelievers a good excuse for their unbelief. I say they understand the truth, it is clear and they have everything they need to believe it but CHOOSE to rebel and thus are completely accountable for their unbelief. Nothing but their own unbelief prevents their salvation. They are without excuse.
Jn 6:44: In Jn 6 the gospel, the means by which God draws men to himself, hasn't even been sent into the world yet. He is hiding the truth in parables and only revealing himself to a select few from Israel, the rest are hardened.
I Cor. 2:14:: Keep reading into the next several versus, because the "brethren" can't accept these same "deep spiritual truths" (vs. 10) because they are living carnally/natural lives. You must understand the means God has chosen to reveal his these mysteries. Paul, a chosen apostles inspired to write scriptures, is one of those means, so for him to say THESE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS must be SPIRITUAL DISCERNED, could very well mean that HE, a spiritually inspired author, needs to explain them to the church, just like he explained the milk of the gospel to them earlier.
Rom. 8:7: I'm not sure what men's inability to submit to God law has to do with their ability as enemies to respond to his Holy Spirit wrought Gospel appeal to be reconciled.
The Gospel is a work of the Holy Spirit, thus any effect IT has is a fruit of the Spirit's work. Jesus said 'the words that I speak to you are spirit and life.' The gospel IS the POWER of God unto salvation though some in stubborn rebellion reject it and rightly deserve the punishment they receive for their free choice of rebellion. And NO I don't mean "free" as in they are just doing what they wanted to do because their natures wouldn't allow them to do otherwise. I mean the Gospel is powerful enough to a make its appeal and anyone who rejects Christ's words will be judged by them (Jn. 12)
Faith a gift
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by psalms109:31, Nov 13, 2011.
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Is Faith a gift by grace that only chosen person has by which they have done nothing to receive.
9 vote(s)45.0% -
Faith a gift for all, only those accept it are saved by grace as in their debt they owe is paid for.
6 vote(s)30.0% -
Other explain
5 vote(s)25.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
There is more to saving faith than mere intellectual understanding. Intellectual understanding is sufficient to condemn them but not sufficient to save them (Rom. 1:19-20; Jn. 3:18). Saving faith is the consequence of prior disposition toward the truth (Jn. 3:18-20) coupled comprehension of the truth which is by revelation (2 Cor. 4:6; Mt. 16:17) rather than mere grasp of data or understanding the mere facts.
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The natural born man and the carnal nature in the supernatural born man has no ability to discern truth because it is "spiritually" discerned. Hence, the lost man cannot understand it at all and the carnal nature of the saved man cannot understand it either. All truth is by revelation by the Spirit of God.
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MB -
So, yes, the law and the prophets "testified" to this gospel of righteousness through faith for all, but it was just NOW being made manifest (Rom 3:21ff). And it wasn't sent to call all men to reconciliation UNTIL after HE was raised up. This is why he taught that after he was raised up he would "draw all men to himself." (Jn 12)
So, we both affirm that there are secret mysteries in the mind of God (vs. 10), right? How does God make those mysteries know to the world?
Let's pick which one is the biblical answer:
1) He inwardly regenerates a select number of people throughout the history of mankind who his supernaturally gives spiritual understanding about these thoughts and mysteries only known to him.
Or
2) He selects messengers, like Paul, who He inspires to write HIS actual words in human language making known (spiritually discerning) the secrets of God to his church through the scriptures. He has being doing it this way all along through prophets, priests and kings since the beginning.
Jesus said, "The words that I speak to you are spirit and life." Spiritual truths are discerned to man through words given by the Spirit.
Second, the verse says men can't submit to God's law. We agree. Men can't attain righteousness through pursuit of the law, but why does that in any way even imply that they can't attain righteousness through faith in the One who fulfilled the law once and for all? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
This predisposition has to do with your love/hate condition of the heart. Jesus said that a person who "hates" the light will not "come" to the light and the person who "loves" the light does "come" to the light. Hence, this predisposition of the heart toward light determines whether or not one "comes" does not come to the light - not merely his understanding of what the facts are with his mind. This necessary predispositional change is noted by God in Deuteronomy 29:4 with Ezek. 36:26-27.
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So is faith a gift, no not in the truest sense of the term. Faith is a result.
Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God -
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Ok, where in this passage does it teach that men (who intellectually understand the light) can't live by the truth of that which they intellectually understand and thus 'come into the light?" I don't see how this supports your claims unless you read something into the text, which is evidence in what you write next...
The gospel wasn't being sent to draw (invite) men to reconciliation with God while Christ was still on earth. We see that come after his resurrection and he tells his disciples to go into all the world...then the Holy Spirit comes down like fire. That is the ENABLING/DRAWING power referred to in John 6, not some secret supernatural inward force. -
Paul, writing to the congregation at Philippi:
But on reflection, it seems to me that Paul wrote that phrase the way he did because it is something the Philippian believers already knew. They already believed that the faith they had placed in the Lord Jesus had been given to them. This was nothing new for them.
The new thing was that their suffering and opposition went with being a believer. In fact, Paul is saying in essence that God has given them the privilege of suffering for Christ's sake, just as he is suffering for the same Christ. -
Now let's look at this. Are you saying that suffering is also a gift? I ask that because the same word you are trying to use as meaning a gift for faith is also modifying suffering.
According to my bible faith is a result of something and that is hearing the word of God. So would being allowed to hear the word be a gift also? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Notice they are "condemned already." This condemnation rests upon the fact that they "believe not." They recognized it as "light" but they "loved" darkness "rather than light." Hence, this is not an intellectual problem but a heart problem. Their refusal to beleive was not inability to intellectually comprehend it was "light" but their refusal was based upon love of darkness and their hatred of light. It is this predisposition of the heart that preventing them from coming to the light - which is a metaphor for beleiving in Christ.
The true inability of men is not that they do not have a free will but rather that they by nature freely choose to reject the light because they hate the light. It is their hate that disables them from coming to the light. This predispositon of hatred of the light and LOVE for darkness must be changed or else they cannot because they will not.
In contrast anyone who does not hate light but loves light their coming to the light manifests that this change of predisposition originates with God not man. -
I think you will find that I will remain cordial even if I completely disagree with your conclusions...
That means all legal obstacles have been removed by the work of Christ. Justice has been satisfied and the ONLY reason anyone remains condemned is for unbelief alone.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Just about to go out the door to town so I will give a quick response before taking off.
It is their heart condition that determines whether they come or do not come to Christ. This is exactly what Romans 8:7 says by the word "enmity." it is this "enmity" that makes them unable ("indeed neither indeed CAN be") to come, that is to believe in Christ.
Hate and love are the conditions of the heart. The conditions of the lost man's heart make it impossible for him to embrace the gospel (Deut. 29:4). The very implication of Deuteronomy 29:4 is that this spiritual inability is due to the fact of the heart they come with and the only other way to reverse this condition is for God to GIVE them another heart and that is exactly what Ezekiel 36:26-27 defines as inclusive of the new covenant.
However, your position does not need a NEW heart in order to function in those things listed in Deuteronomy 29:4 but rather that present heart is capable of functioning in those things if simply HELPED by God rather than REPLACED by God. Deuteronomy 29:4 and Ezekiel 36:27 both attribute the CAUSE for heart obedience to God giving the new heart not to the heart in possession by the person or simply helping the person change their own heart.
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Acts 8:
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”
25 After they had further proclaimed the word of the Lord and testified about Jesus, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages.
The new heart to me is a heart no longer seperated from the Holy Spirit given to believers. -
Faith is a natural ability that all men have. Even animals have faith, my kids own a cat that is very afraid of strangers, but confidently comes to us.
Spurgeon wrote;
Spurgeon also wrote;
Spurgeon further writes there is no merit in faith, what merit is there in believeing that which is true? Is it merit to believe the sun will rise tomorrow? So, there is no merit in faith. -
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JesusFan said: ↑We do NOT say that God "programmed" us to act as we do, its just that being sinners, we are bound up in our sinful natures, and can freely chose to do things, its just as regarding salvation, will always choose to refuse Christ!Click to expand...
Don't you believe that only God can give a man a good heart? Then who gave man an evil heart? -
Winman said: ↑This is not accurate, all Calvinists believe that only God can alter a man's nature, isn't this so?
Don't you believe that only God can give a man a good heart? Then who gave man an evil heart?Click to expand... -
JesusFan said: ↑Since God is the One who indeeds bring a sinner to be able to place faith in Christ and get saved, is that a BAD thing?Click to expand...
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JesusFan said: ↑We do NOT say that God "programmed" us to act as we do, its just that being sinners, we are bound up in our sinful natures, and can freely chose to do things, its just as regarding salvation, will always choose to refuse Christ!Click to expand...
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I know I don't have the theological education of many here. But, as a sit-in-the-pew Christian I look at it perhaps in a more practical way than the theologian does. Sometimes theologians get so involved in dissecting verb tenses and ancient Greek definitions they miss the overall picture. Now I know this doesn't describe anyone here. All our theologians are cream of the crop, but this is how I see it. :love2:
Grace and faith are like inhaling and exhaling. Life requires both. It really doesn't matter which is missing or why. If we don't do both we die.
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