Faith and Hope

[JD731]

JD, believing is an effect and God is the cause.
We Christians must believe because God has caused us to have faith and believe.

Salvation is entirely of God without any preceding requirement of human cooperation before God can save.
The story of Paul's conversion is proof of this.
The issue is whether you will accept the observed Word of God or whether you will create your own presupposition and then force God to fit your presupposition.
It is a sure sign that arguing against a boogeyman whom you label Calvinist rather than trust the observed Word of God is proof you are starting from a presupposition not observed truth.

Paul, like all others who are saved heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and was forced to consider it. He was there in Jerusalem when the Jewish leaders killed Stephen. Paul/Saul heard his message and watched the great Stephen die the martyrs death. God said that faith cometh by hearing the word of God. You do not say that, but God does. You would have us to believe that faith cometh by the zap of God. Who really has a presupposition? You have no verse or statement in the scriptures that says faith is an effect of God's grace. You made it up and preach it as if it is true. I would be willing to give you two weeks to find the scriptures saying what you teach about them while honoring context. You cannot do it.

Paul/Saul submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ just as all saved sinners do and must do.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Faith is the principle that all men must exercise in the absence of perfect knowledge. If and when a man acquires perfect knowledge he will not need faith and faith will come to an end. Faith cannot exist unless it is joined at the hip with hope. Anywhere our faith is dealt with by God in scriptures, hope will be a sidekick. I will quote a few verses to prove this. I will start with Romans 5:1

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You twist this scripture to teach the opposite - you would have us believe By Jesus Christ we have access by grace into this faith. That is what you have been teaching.

Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

As a side note here, the hope of the gospel is a glorified body, that which saved people have been predestinated to.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Consider this:

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, (faith is) the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it (faith) the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Partial knowledge.

1 Cor 13 has Paul telling us we have partial knowledge but when the perfect thing is come, which is the eternal state when we have a new body and complete knowlede, then the partial things will be done away. Those are faith and hope. Read it with me here.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

Just WOW!

Watch this;

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

The operative takeaway of the above verses is awaiting our glorification, which requires a new glorified body like unto the glorified body of our Lord Jesus.

Now, watch;

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

When what we hope for arrives then hope goes away. Watch it.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for it. (REMEMBER HEB 11:1!

Faith is a temporary principle to carry us into the plan and purpose of God. It has an end.

Austin C, I do not think you will be able to comprehend any of this wonderful truth.

 

[AustinC]

Paul, like all others who are saved heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and was forced to consider it. He was there in Jerusalem when the Jewish leaders killed Stephen. Paul/Saul heard his message and watched the great Stephen die the martyrs death.

Paul supported Stephen's death.
Paul considered the gospel to be foolishness, so much so that he was "breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord." (Acts 9:1)

God said that faith cometh by hearing the word of God. You do not say that, but God does. You would have us to believe that faith cometh by the zap of God. Who really has a presupposition? You have no verse or statement in the scriptures that says faith is an effect of God's grace. You made it up and preach it as if it is true. I would be willing to give you two weeks to find the scriptures saying what you teach about them while honoring context. You cannot do it.

Actually, Romans 10 does it for me.

Romans 10:8-20
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

[/QUOTE]Paul/Saul submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ just as all saved sinners do and must do.[/QUOTE]
Yep, God spoke and Paul submitted. Thank you. You prove that God is the cause and the response is the effect of what God does.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Faith is the principle that all men must exercise in the absence of perfect knowledge. If and when a man acquires perfect knowledge he will not need faith and faith will come to an end. Faith cannot exist unless it is joined at the hip with hope. Anywhere our faith is dealt with by God in scriptures, hope will be a sidekick. I will quote a few verses to prove this.

And right here we see your presupposition. What does God say?
Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29
For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

 

[AustinC]

Continued...

I will start with Romans 5:1

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You twist this scripture to teach the opposite - you would have us believe By Jesus Christ we have access by grace into this faith. That is what you have been teaching.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

As a side note here, the hope of the gospel is a glorified body, that which saved people have been predestinated to.

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Notice that all these people are already believers. Your verses express that God is the cause and the effect is that believers have faith.

Consider this:

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, (faith is) the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it (faith) the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

I have considered what the Bible says and shared it with you. Your three assertions show that God is the cause and the effect is that believers have faith.

Partial knowledge.

1 Cor 13 has Paul telling us we have partial knowledge but when the perfect thing is come, which is the eternal state when we have a new body and complete knowlede, then the partial things will be done away. Those are faith and hope. Read it with me here.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

Just WOW!

Interesting. Do you realize that this passage never says that faith comes before salvation? You have plucked a passage that you think supports your presupposition, but nothing in this passage supports it.

Watch this;

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

The operative takeaway of the above verses is awaiting our glorification, which requires a new glorified body like unto the glorified body of our Lord Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15-17
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
We are heirs who receive an inheritance because God wrote us into the Will. (New Covenant)

Now, watch;

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Do you realize that the passage you quote shows that God is the cause and our reaction is the effect?

When what we hope for arrives then hope goes away. Watch it.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for it. (REMEMBER HEB 11:1!

Faith is a temporary principle to carry us into the plan and purpose of God. It has an end.

Austin C, I do not think you will be able to comprehend any of this wonderful truth.

Where does it say that hope goes away?
Where does it say that faith is temporary?

I do remember Hebrews 11:1.
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

John Piper correctly states that faith is seeing past what is directly in front of you and seeing the evidence that others (the Godless sinner) do not see. It gives us hope and assurance that we will reach our destination in this marathon we run.
Hebrews 12:12-13
Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.

I comprehend the truth of God. I observe that you have a presupposition that causes you to twist what God has said and therefore miss what God has told you, right within the very verses you quote.

The Bible is clear. God is the cause of our faith. Our response in belief is the effect.

Thank you for making this obvious to all readers.

 

[DaveXR650]

You would have us to believe that faith cometh by the zap of God.

But Paul was the best example of being zapped I ever heard of. Acts 9 shows that. But Philippians 3 shows something else. Here Paul says he has carefully considered his advantages as a Jew and a careful follower of the law and HE has decided to count it all dung and he has already lost everything and will do anything that he might know Christ. HE presses on, but why? Because "Christ Jesus has made me his own". I don't think it was ever expected of us that we become so precise that we can't accept that salvation is all of God and yet we should push after it with all our mind and will and might.

 

[Iconoclast]

JD in yet another failed attempt to come against the truth of the grace of God turns from light to darkness.
He ridicules the unseen supernatural work of the Spirit of God, jn3. Saying God does not "zap" anyone.
Then he blunders by trying to get Pauls's conversion to fit into his story.
It has been noticed and commented on that account demonstrates exactly the opposite of what he posts.
His posts show how God allows someone to expose themselves as teaching falsehoods thanks JD , perhaps this will be as a warning to others who depart from truth.

 

[kyredneck]

But Paul was the best example of being zapped I ever heard of.

Compare:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

...with:

...Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord?... Acts 9:4-5

...with:

...when it was the good pleasure of God....to reveal his Son in me... Gal 1 15-16

 

[JD731]

But Paul was the best example of being zapped I ever heard of. Acts 9 shows that. But Philippians 3 shows something else. Here Paul says he has carefully considered his advantages as a Jew and a careful follower of the law and HE has decided to count it all dung and he has already lost everything and will do anything that he might know Christ. HE presses on, but why? Because "Christ Jesus has made me his own". I don't think it was ever expected of us that we become so precise that we can't accept that salvation is all of God and yet we should push after it with all our mind and will and might.

There is a huge problem. Scriptures knows nothing about zapping. Calvinism demands that faith be a grace of God. It is not. Salvation for gentiles is made available by God because in time past gentiles were without God, without Christ,without hope and they did not have an acceptable blood sacrifice by which we could approach God in that time. But now Christ Jesus has made us nigh by his own blood. Ephesians 2 tells us these wonderful truths but none of you guys can process the information that we are given there. When all this is settled and the books are opened there will be weeping.

 

[DaveXR650]

JD. My point was just that getting knocked down by a blinding light and temporary blindness would qualify in some peoples minds as being "zapped". In Philippians chapter 3 Paul also is following after Christ after making a decision to give up all other advantages that he had. So he is clearly using his God given faculties to do this. Then he turns around and claims that he did this because "Christ Jesus has made me his own". You clearly have God acting according to his sovereign will as well as Paul using his mind and will. I think this may be above our minds to fully comprehend.

Now your last statement makes it sound like you think Calvinism is a heretical viewpoint incompatible with salvation. If that is the case you should actually read some Calvinist literature and sermons. You will find no group of people with a higher view of the need to trust Christ by faith and then live a holy life with all your might than the Calvinists. I came to be a Calvinist because of that - not the TULIP or the teaching on the order of salvation. I came from a church that had drifted into an easy believism that indeed can be a fatal heresy.

 

[AustinC]

There is a huge problem. Scriptures knows nothing about zapping. Calvinism demands that faith be a grace of God. It is not. Salvation for gentiles is made available by God because in time past gentiles were without God, without Christ,without hope and they did not have an acceptable blood sacrifice by which we could approach God in that time. But now Christ Jesus has made us nigh by his own blood. Ephesians 2 tells us these wonderful truths but none of you guys can process the information that we are given there. When all this is settled and the books are opened there will be weeping.

LOL, "none of you can process the information" found in Ephesians 2. But you, just by referencing the chapter, have fully processed it? LOL, that's a hoot.
You are correct, the Bible doesn't use the word "zap." That's all your words.
The Bible says "chosen from before the foundation of the world," "predestined," and "elect." The Bible tells us that the New Covemant is God's "Will", written with all the names of those who receive an Inheritance. The names were written before the foundation of the world. And contrary to a different poster, those names are not blotted out when a person sins.
You are right. Zapped is your own fiction and boogeyman that you made up as an excuse to not believe what the Bible does say.
JD, I answered all your OP. I presented Bible passage after Bible passage. I am sorry you cannot comprehend what God's Word is telling you. May you re-read my response and see what you have missed.

 

[JD731]

JD. My point was just that getting knocked down by a blinding light and temporary blindness would qualify in some peoples minds as being "zapped". In Philippians chapter 3 Paul also is following after Christ after making a decision to give up all other advantages that he had. So he is clearly using his God given faculties to do this. Then he turns around and claims that he did this because "Christ Jesus has made me his own". You clearly have God acting according to his sovereign will as well as Paul using his mind and will. I think this may be above our minds to fully comprehend.

Now your last statement makes it sound like you think Calvinism is a heretical viewpoint incompatible with salvation. If that is the case you should actually read some Calvinist literature and sermons. You will find no group of people with a higher view of the need to trust Christ by faith and then live a holy life with all your might than the Calvinists. I came to be a Calvinist because of that - not the TULIP or the teaching on the order of salvation. I came from a church that had drifted into an easy believism that indeed can be a fatal heresy.

Salvation from the penalty of sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire, is accomplish in a sinner when the Spirit of God and Christ enters his mortal body and becomes the eternal third member of his person. This is called by the scriptures the new birth, or being born again. The Spirit, the scriptures say is life (rom 8:9). he is given to us believers in Christ as an earnest of our full salvation, which includes a glorification when our bodies are redeemed, at which time we will experience the fullness of the Spirit and will be capable of receiving our inheritance, which is reserved in heaven for us. (1 Pet 1:4) Paul says, as he expounds the great doctrines of the Christian faith concerning this subject of receiving the Spirit into our mortal bodies to be our life, that if any man have not the Spirit, he is none of his (Gods') He is not a son if he has not the Spirit. The Spirit is the agency of the new birth.

So, now we know what salvation from sin is and it is the most important doctrine in the scriptures because God, as the judge of all the earth has passed the guilty sentence on us all. A man without the Spirit of Christ is dead. A man with the Spirit of Christ is alive. Many of modern Christian sects do not have the Spirit and are quite in the dark concerning the definition of salvation and how to be saved, and who is a candidate for salvation. They are actually practicing a form of self righteousness, and I must admit that I have Calvinism in this subset of Christian sects.

Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, was empowered to do always those things that please the Father in spite of the weakness of the flesh because from birth the Spirit of God abided in him from his conception. His entire ministry was by the power that dwelt in him until his cross when Jesus Christ, the man, died alone on the old rugged cross, as a substitute for all other men who would die alone and experience the wrath of God had he not been willing to do it for us.

Jesus Christ did not have the earnest of the Spirit from his birth but he had the Spirit without measure.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

When Jesus Christ first appeared on earth and men gave testimony about it, they said this:

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

So the Spirit that dwelt in Jesus was two things here. Life and light.

So now we understand that salvation and receiving the Spirit of Christ are synonyms. It is the new birth. It is the time a sinner passes from death unto life. It is when his sins are washed away by the blood of the Lamb and the sinners body becomes a fit temple of the Holy Ghost of God. One can see this clearly in the following verses if he has eyes to see.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You see how regeneration is in the context of a washing and is when the Holy Ghost applies the blood of Christ that takes away sin and then he lives in us because the sin has been dealt with by God himself.

I will quote another verse for you but some of you will not have this in your perverted bibles.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

So, if salvation and receiving the indwelling Jesus in the person of his Spirit is synonomous and that sinner who does not have the Spirit is none of his, then how do we receive the Spirit? We have a chapter where that question is raised and answered by God himself.I quote from it.

Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This is a question for Calvinists.

Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

I am getting the distinct feeling that receiving the Spirit is based upon the hearing of faith.

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Here we have salvation coming through Jesus Christ upon the gentile nations by faith.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

How then do we get faith? Is it a gift of God like Calvinists claims? No. Saving faith is never a gift of God, much less THE gift of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now we know that two things must be present for salvation to occur. The word of God and the man of God because we now know that saving faith (the receiving of the Spirit) comes by hearing the word of God preached by the man of God, the preacher.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Watch this: This is something that God has actually chosen to get people saved;

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You guys are in stark disgreement with God on this point. You say he has chosen election to zap them who he elected. You are dead wrong about that.

 

[JD731]

LOL, "none of you can process the information" found in Ephesians 2. But you, just by referencing the chapter, have fully processed it? LOL, that's a hoot.
You are correct, the Bible doesn't use the word "zap." That's all your words.
The Bible says "chosen from before the foundation of the world," "predestined," and "elect." The Bible tells us that the New Covemant is God's "Will", written with all the names of those who receive an Inheritance. The names were written before the foundation of the world. And contrary to a different poster, those names are not blotted out when a person sins.
You are right. Zapped is your own fiction and boogeyman that you made up as an excuse to not believe what the Bible does say.
JD, I answered all your OP. I presented Bible passage after Bible passage. I am sorry you cannot comprehend what God's Word is telling you. May you re-read my response and see what you have missed.

You do not believe the words in the scriptures AustinC. You have already said so in a previous post. Here is what the scriptures says about faith and grace and you twist this to make it teach something different.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Now the scriptures plainly says that the promise of righteousness that was given in the Abrahamic covenant to all people was by faith that it might be by grace. You do two things with a statement such as this. You attempt to make faith a grace of God and you transpose the latter word grace to to be the former word so it might come across in the following way;
Therefore it is of grace that it might be by faith. Otherwise, faith as a grace of God makes no sense whatsoever. Therefore it is of grace that it might be by grace???

Paul is making perfect sense here in these three illustrations of the doctrine of justifying faith in Rom 4. When he has made his case in Rom 4 he draws a conclusion in the beginning of chapter 5. Watch it.

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

You see how that we have access by faith into this grace he has just described and illustrated. The grace is salvation, the Holy Ghost is given to us to dwell in our hearts. The grace of God is occupied with the Holy Ghost and his work on behalf of the believer.

To teach that faith is a grace is totally confusing the gospel.

 

[JD731]

JD in yet another failed attempt to come against the truth of the grace of God turns from light to darkness.
He ridicules the unseen supernatural work of the Spirit of God, jn3. Saying God does not "zap" anyone.
Then he blunders by trying to get Pauls's conversion to fit into his story.
It has been noticed and commented on that account demonstrates exactly the opposite of what he posts.
His posts show how God allows someone to expose themselves as teaching falsehoods thanks JD , perhaps this will be as a warning to others who depart from truth.

You totally missed my point of bringing up Paul on the Damascus Road. The point is that he did not meet Jesus on that Road void of hearing the gospel of Christ. He had heard one of the most powerful sermons ever preached by Stephen. If God had written in his bible that the gospel is the power of God to save a man and that he had chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and then Paul came up and was saved by a vision, could we then have confidence in the rest of the scriptures?

 

[DaveXR650]

You see how that we have access by faith into this grace he has just described and illustrated. The grace is salvation, the Holy Ghost is given to us to dwell in our hearts. The grace of God is occupied with the Holy Ghost and his work on behalf of the believer.

JD, I don't have any problem with the above statement. For one thing, you have to hear the word of God or at least read it or come into contact with it somehow. Calvinists teach that. It's in the WCF, question no. 67. The word is essential. Regarding faith being a gift I want to say 2 things. First, it is referred to as a gift but indirectly - it's because the Holy Spirit works on the person's will to enable them to embrace the gospel. I'm only using the Westminster Confession of Faith because it is considered to be standard Calvinist teaching. And I'm a Baptist so I know you'll be saying that it's not scripture - look below each question and there are about 5 verses supporting each question. (Usually in KJV)

I think Calvinism has a low view of our human natural will which I think is correct. All Christians, and I see from your post that you also believe that the Holy Spirit within you is essential for salvation. So why insist at the same time that there can be no supernatural involvement in initially getting faith if you have to have help to keep it. If all you mean to say is that faith is what is done ON YOUR PART in order to be saved and all you mean by it is that YOU actually do the believing I have no argument with you. I'm still gonna call it a gift. Remember, in your statement above it's "the Holy Ghost and his work on behalf of the believer". You are not in control.

By the way, thanks for the careful response to my previous post. I do appreciate that.

 

[AustinC]

You do not believe the words in the scriptures AustinC. You have already said so in a previous post. Here is what the scriptures says about faith and grace and you twist this to make it teach something different.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Now the scriptures plainly says that the promise of righteousness that was given in the Abrahamic covenant to all people was by faith that it might be by grace. You do two things with a statement such as this. You attempt to make faith a grace of God and you transpose the latter word grace to to be the former word so it might come across in the following way;
Therefore it is of grace that it might be by faith. Otherwise, faith as a grace of God makes no sense whatsoever. Therefore it is of grace that it might be by grace???

Paul is making perfect sense here in these three illustrations of the doctrine of justifying faith in Rom 4. When he has made his case in Rom 4 he draws a conclusion in the beginning of chapter 5. Watch it.

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

You see how that we have access by faith into this grace he has just described and illustrated. The grace is salvation, the Holy Ghost is given to us to dwell in our hearts. The grace of God is occupied with the Holy Ghost and his work on behalf of the believer.

To teach that faith is a grace is totally confusing the gospel.

Do you see a difference between salvation and justification?
I do.
Ephesians 2:4-9 tells us we are saved by grace. It tells us that the faith we are given is not our own so that we cannot boast.
Paul, from Romans 1 through Romans 11, informs the Roman Christians that their legal justification before God is established by faith. He is not addressing their salvation. Their salvation is by grace alone. Their justification is by faith alone. Salvation is given to them before justification. Perhaps you struggle with grasping this truth.
Now that this is established, let's look at Romans 4 (but you really need to read from chapter 1 through chapter 11 to grasp Paul's full argument regarding justification) to see how what Paul is saying about justification and Abraham.
Romans 4:9-25

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Question, JD, did the promise come before or after God gave faith? What does the text tell you. Read it. Grasp it. Don't bring your presupposition in to it and thus explain it away. What does the text say? Did the promise come after faith or before it?

Once again, the text shows clearly that God is the cause and faith is the effect. You keep trying to make it be faith that causes God to act. But, that is not what God tells you. God tells you that He is the cause and faith is the effect.

Finally, I have never taught that faith is a grace. I have always said that faith is a gift given as an effect of God's gracious salvation.

 

[AustinC]

You totally missed my point of bringing up Paul on the Damascus Road. The point is that he did not meet Jesus on that Road void of hearing the gospel of Christ. He had heard one of the most powerful sermons ever preached by Stephen. If God had written in his bible that the gospel is the power of God to save a man and that he had chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and then Paul came up and was saved by a vision, could we then have confidence in the rest of the scriptures?

Realize you are still saying that God is the cause and faith is the effect.

 

[Iconoclast]

You totally missed my point of bringing up Paul on the Damascus Road. The point is that he did not meet Jesus on that Road void of hearing the gospel of Christ. He had heard one of the most powerful sermons ever preached by Stephen. If God had written in his bible that the gospel is the power of God to save a man and that he had chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and then Paul came up and was saved by a vision, could we then have confidence in the rest of the scriptures?

I understand what you are getting at. I do not minmize that Paul heard that powerful speech and confession in Acts 7.
But notice the text says he was looking to have the saints arrested, so it does not indicate he was repentant.
Something dramatic took place, suddenly.

 

[JD731]

Realize you are still saying that God is the cause and faith is the effect.

This is totally false. The access to God's grace is by faith. This is not God's faith because God does not have faith. He is omniscient. He knows all things by one eternal act of knowing. He does not give us faith but he does expect us to believe what he says, and you don't believe him. You are on here trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[JD731]

JD, I don't have any problem with the above statement. For one thing, you have to hear the word of God or at least read it or come into contact with it somehow. Calvinists teach that. It's in the WCF, question no. 67. The word is essential. Regarding faith being a gift I want to say 2 things. First, it is referred to as a gift but indirectly - it's because the Holy Spirit works on the person's will to enable them to embrace the gospel. I'm only using the Westminster Confession of Faith because it is considered to be standard Calvinist teaching. And I'm a Baptist so I know you'll be saying that it's not scripture - look below each question and there are about 5 verses supporting each question. (Usually in KJV)

I think Calvinism has a low view of our human natural will which I think is correct. All Christians, and I see from your post that you also believe that the Holy Spirit within you is essential for salvation. So why insist at the same time that there can be no supernatural involvement in initially getting faith if you have to have help to keep it. If all you mean to say is that faith is what is done ON YOUR PART in order to be saved and all you mean by it is that YOU actually do the believing I have no argument with you. I'm still gonna call it a gift. Remember, in your statement above it's "the Holy Ghost and his work on behalf of the believer". You are not in control.

By the way, thanks for the careful response to my previous post. I do appreciate that.

it's because the Holy Spirit works on the person's will to enable them to embrace the gospel.

First of all Dave, a person does not need the Holy Ghost to enable his will. This teaching is foreign to the scriptures. The Holy Ghost is given as the fulfillment of a promise to Israel some 2000 years after they had faith. If you would stop and think about that you would acknowledge that I am telling you the truth. Men of the OT were justified by faith. There was no possibility of the Spirit of God being given before the blood of the sacrifice was offered at the cross. Those who believed in those days were kept in paradise in the center of the earth until Jesus died and rose again and ascended to heaven, where we are told he led captivity captive. The scriptures teach us that without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

Here is something else for you to consider; When the Holy Ghost was poured out on Israel is such abundance that each and everyone of them could drink and live, there was conditions for this people to receive the Spirit. You may read it for yourself;

After Peter had taken the OT scriptures and proven that Jesus must die for the nation, they of Israel asked this question;

Ac 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

Here is what he said to do;

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

The operative phrase in this instruction is "every one of you." This is a national sermon to Israel on the feast of weeks festival. God will not establish his kingdom on the earth until every Israelite is saved. All through the Acts we see how Jews who got saved before the dispersion in AD 70 were required to be baptized in water unpon believing in the crucified and resurrected Lord Jesus. Paul himself was required to be baptized before he received the Spirit. You may read it here;

3 I am verily a man [which am] a Jew, born in Tarsus, [a city] in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt [there],
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Paul would write about the washing away of sins by the presence in the body of the Holy Ghost later in Titus 3:5. I have quoted that already in these conversations. We learn from carefully reading our scriptures that the apostles and prophets must approve the testimony of those who believe in Christ and must lay hands on them.

Here is what Jesus said in his New Testament commission to his apostles after he had personally breathed the Spirit from himself into their bodies;
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The parables of Jesus in the gospels allows for a time of of mercy upon Israel of 40 years after the pattern of the wilderness wandering and still they would not repent.

Lu 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

We know the fig tree was cut down and removed from the vineyard in AD 70, forty years later. See He 3.

The point here is that God does put conditions on his salvation and when I hear Calvinism's argument that salvation is unconditional I have to wonder what book you are reading.

 

[JD731]

I understand what you are getting at. I do not minmize that Paul heard that powerful speech and confession in Acts 7.
But notice the text says he was looking to have the saints arrested, so it does not indicate he was repentant.
Something dramatic took place, suddenly.

The Holy Ghost is not mentioned as being involved in this exchange. He would be the agent of Paul's salvation in Damascus when he indwelt him and washed his sins away by the blood of the Lamb. What came first, faith or salvation?

 

[37818]

. . . a person does not need the Holy Ghost to enable his will.

John 16:8-11, ". . . when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."