Right on Don. They always seem to gloss over verse 39...BUT...WE (true Christians) ARE NOT of them who draw back UNTO PERDITION (That means "total destruction"). True Christians do not draw back unto "perdition". This very verse indicates that the writer is warning those who are playing church.
God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]What letter addressed to Christians does not start of with some type of salutation while during the course of it offers some admonitions?
The writer is warning christian and also reminding them of who they are.
Faith "not of yourselves" Eph 2:8
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jan 17, 2006.
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1. No, "faith alone" as you understand it does not save you and
2. Yes, Jesus' death is sufficient for payment of our sins.
If the issue is "sin being paid for" we know Jesus' death is the payment. But, it would seem that this issue here is how one accepts that payment. On what terms do one accept that payment to God.
Key word Covenant. An agreement between us and God understanding his term while we give him our lives.
"faith" alone, "grace" alone, "Jesus" alone....
What about repentance alone, or works alone, or righteousness alone, Childlike alone, baptism alone.....
Oh my head :confused:
Grace is an enviornement God created before you thought about Him. Not of yourself.
Jesus paid the price before your were born. Gift not of yourself.
What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift? A relationship based on his commands. Simple.
His command love him by obeying his commands, repent and follow him, don't give up stay faithful, be baptized all in the envoirnment of Grace through your faith (not just beleif alone)
To answer your question... No they are not "doing enough" IF they have a faith not completed by what the DO. and If they stop believing Read Rev 3:
The power of Gods grace in reality apart from these people is more than sufficient. But cheapened in the live of these individuals.
"Cheap Grace" is more of the beholder (bystander) than of the Giver
Romans 6:1
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"
"Alone" when applied by you become a uninspired view when leaving out other VITAL things like repentance and commitment.
"Faith" in the bible is NEVER defined by one word
"Grace" is opened ended everyone is living in it some just can appreciated more
Christ is the Word of God which God spoke MANY that should be concidered when approaching him.
Never made "Light" of the blood of Christ, just of the theory OSAS. -
"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."
Eternal life is not something that is something external to Christ, but rather is intrinsic to Christ Himself. That's why we must remain in Him to have life or else we'll wither and die spiritually. -
Second question. Does the fact that some Christians erroniously believe that faith in Christ plus sinlessness is what saves them nullify their salvation. In other words, does erroring in doctrine nullify their faith? I don't think so. Just because some here believe that they must be sinless to gain salvation does not mean that they will not be saved by faith alone just like you and I.
God Bless! -
God Bless! -
God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Steaver! Missed Ya
Real quick, you left a few items on the table on another thread "Mat 18 - Sins Revoked"
Now to continue... I do not have a negative tunnel vision. I am just merely laying a proper foundation for applying scripture in proper context. That's all.
I agree that scritures were written to Gods people, both old and new testament, for Jews and Gentiles. Jesus lays the foundation of faith in being his disciple in His teaching to His followers.
All I'm getting at is that you may want to be vary careful not to apply something that is ment for believers to nonbelievers. -
FA - I suppose it depends on how you define "ongoing." Where does the Bible say that our faith must be "ongoing" anyway?
2. What judgement do you use to draw the line at what is a "Work" or not?
FA - If it's something we must "do" IOT be saved... works.
3. When you speak of works that can't sustain us in Christ are you speaking about Christ commands and/or the Law of Moses?
FA - I'm talking about anything which the person feels must be done IOT remain in Christ.
Grace and Peace </font>[/QUOTE]FA - How about "Yes" and "no"?
No, God does not make a person a new creature without faith, and that faith implies consent. No issue there. But We cannot remove God's work in drawing us to Him. IOW, God did choose us before we ever came to believe in Him.
FA -
Tazman,
You said,
Hence, what does MONON ("only") modify? Well, how about "justified"?
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not only [justified] by faith."
I checked with BGreek, and they agreed that to repeat "justified" to make the reading clear was valid. What James is saying is that there is a justification before God by faith alone (no works). There is also a justification (before men - IMO, read it in context) by works. This justification by works does not relate to gaining eternal life, else Paul and James would be in direct contradiction with one another.
When a believer sees another believer in need, and helps him - that shows that his faith is active. It is a good testimony to the world. It justifies him before men, then... not for eternal life, but as a genuine Christian, and it demonstrates that Christ does change people (when they see your behavior which is not typical in the world.) If a Christian walked by anotehr believer and just prayed for him or said, "Be warm and well filled" how is that any different than we see in the world? John 13:34, 35 says that the world will know we are His disciples by our love for one another.
This view is not as common as the one you assumed, but it is more common than you might think.
Thx,
FA -
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And where does it say that we receive the gift of eternal life by obeying His commands? According to John 6:29 the only work required is "faith."
FA -
What does Jesus required in order to accept this gift?
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FA -
I understand the initial response of receiving God's gift of eternal life and all that encompasses that (Holy Spirit, born-again, new creature) is done by one act of faith.
My heart was pricked with conviction when I heard about Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. This conviction was an act of God, not I. Feeling the weight of my sins was also an act of God, not I. By faith I agreed to receive Jesus Christ as my Savior only because I received knowledge by conviction that I needed Jesus Christ.
What I am having trouble with is defining the line between knowledge and faith. Surely the faith I placed in Jesus Christ that day was born out of the knowledge God gave me about myself and about His Son. It is true that I could have resisted and turned away. Maybe another day I would be visited again with God's conviction or maybe never again.
So this leaves me with two points.
#1 Is "my" faith pure faith? Is faith simply faith or is there blind faith and knowledgeable faith? This is why I asked is faith of myself or has God produced that faith within me? Isn't faith the substance of things not seen? I have been given knowledge about Truths but I do not "see" Jesus Christ, so that would be faith, correct? Even though in my heart it has been witnessed as true.
#2 Since that day I placed "my" faith in Jesus Christ I have never doubted what I have received. I became one with Jesus, born-again, and I never think about whether or not I believe in Jesus Christ. "My" faith is always present with me. Like it was said, it is like breathing, I don't think about it, it just happens. How can I believe one can lose faith when I personally know in my own life I have never had not believing cross my mind? Am I any better than anybody else? God is no respector of persons. Why is my faith in Jesus Christ for salvation never brought into question within my spirit? Doubt just isn't there, never ever was, and it has been 32 years.
This is why I cannot understand those who say you must "keep on believing". How can I not? Jesus Christ is always in me.
Isn't Christian faith based on knowledge of fact? God given facts upon the heart? This is why I don't understand how one could begin with God's knowledge, accept it through re-birth, and then say "oh I don't believe that anymore". How do you stop believing that which you have learned is an absolute truth?
God Bless! -
Adam did.
Lucifer did.
Eve did.
1/3 of the perfect sinless angels did.
Those in Gal 5 who "fell from grace" did.
Simply "knowing a fact" has never determined what choices a person will make. One must believe and must continue to choose that same course. "I die daily" Paul said.
Christ said in Matt 10 that we must daily take up our cross and follow Him -
All of the perseverance texts of scripture are based on the idea of free will, "motivation" and choice to daily continue in the walk with Christ.
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Adam knew what God had said, he chose not to believe it.
Lucifer knew what God had said, he chose not to believe it.
Eve knew what God had said, she chose not to believe it.
1/3 of the perfect sinless angels knew what God had said, they chose not to believe it.
Billions of people have known or now know what God has said, and choose not to believe it.
They all know what He said because truth is always truth whether one believes it or not. Accepting it as truth is another matter.
You missed part of my statement...
"Isn't Christian faith based on knowledge of fact? God given facts upon the heart (this would mean conviction as truth by God, not by faith)? This is why I don't understand how one could begin with God's knowledge, accept it through re-birth , and then say "oh I don't believe that anymore". How do you stop believing that which you have learned is an absolute truth?"
You just never have gotten a grasp on born-again brother. A new creature, old has past away. The Spirit of Christ joined with the spirit of man. This is the new creature. It is not the old man joined with Christ. It is a NEW CREATURE. The old man is crucified with Christ. Crucified would mean never again to live. A new man is raised to life. A man possessing eternal life within through the Spirit of Christ. It cannot be recalled or undone, hence it is called a "birth". If this creature can now go to hell it must needs go there as one, the Spirit of Christ joined with the spirit of a new man. One cannot change what God has made them in Christ, nor would they ever want to. Would you Bob? Have you ever been lost after your rebirth? It has been thirty-two years for me. I have been many terrible things in those 32 years, but never once stopped believing. Maybe I am just a special case! Have you ever been lost since rebirth(saved)?
God Bless! -
Satan, speaks for himself - Know God, but desired to be greater than Him.
Admittedly they knew of God better than You, but yet made a choice at some point with in the relationship to turn away. They wanted something More (but it didn't exist). -
Posted By Steaver:
Warning are to call back to repentance. Maybe right now you don't need to be called back to repentance.
or Maybe not. -
God Bless! -
And Eve believed she would be dead after she ate but decided she would eat anyways and be like God. Yeah that makes alot of sense! That is simple indeed!
God Bless! -
God Bless!
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