Faith vs Logic II

Michelle, I am not trying to trap you here, I really would like to see a scripture that says that all men KNOW God exists. Somehow I think this is right up there with "Cleanliness is next to Godliness."

So, you are saying your husband is an athiest, but he knows God exists, so he is really not an athiest? Does he know he is not an athiest? </font>[/QUOTE]Phillip,

Ecclesiastes 3:11 says that God has set eternity in their heart (the hearts of men), yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

The exegetes of which I am aware generally agree that this affirms that man intuitively knows God exist and is capable of using his faculty of reason to logically conclude inductively that He exists (like Arisotle), yet He willfully rejects the moral and ethical implications of that truth due to the effects of sin. Also, where He does understand God, as regenerate men can do, it is only imperfectly, though his understanding grows and matures over time, along with his faith.

Modern atheism seems to affirm this, given the way most atheists frame their atheism as negative arguments against theism.

 

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Logic underlies those truths, because, for example, the resurrection is a real, historical event, not something somebody made up. It could be that somebody made it up and it's all a lie. That's what Paul is defending against in 1 Corinthians. He is defending against a belief Jesus did not bodily rise from the dead. He says that if it did not happen, we are doomed above all men, because we preach the truth of that and all that we believe stems from it.

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But we require FAITH in this. This cannot be evidenced, but only by BELIEVING the scriptures. It has nothing to do with USING LOGIC. We must BELIEVE without QUESTION. This is what Jesus said about those PRIOR to Jesus and AFTER who BELIEVE:

John 20

26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


And also keep in mind Hebrews 11.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, I'm going to keep your husband in my prayers.

A thought came to me: Have you ever heard of the book The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel? Strobel, by his own testimony, was once a hardened atheist who despised God's Word. This book is essentially his journey from unbelief to belief, and demonstrates how faith is not the 'fairy tale' he once considered it to be.

There's another book too that might be helpful, Letters from a Skeptic by Greg Boyd. While I don't recommenend everything Boyd has written, this book details his years-long correspondence with his avowed atheist father- which finally led to his father's acceptance of Christ.

Both books knock down many of the barriers that atheists have toward faith in Christ; and if someone is hardened towards the Word of God, maybe they'd be willing to read about others who once were also in unbelief.

I truly am hoping for & trusting in God that one day I'll be able to sign-on to the BB and see that you're able to say that your husband has accepted Jesus as Savior!

 

Michelle, how can you believe if you do not know? Knowledge requires something to know. It requires the mind. The mind uses sound reasoning. The process of sound reasoning is, by definition, sound logic. Sound logic leads to faith and vice versa.

Where in Scripture does it say we are to believe "without question?" Why is it wrong to use logic to confirm our faith? Do you really think that sound logic will deny faith? You have said yourself that it has been shown that logic comes from God. We know this because we use logic, and because we use logic, we know God does too, and God can't not be logical, so we know that logic is of God. IT CAN BE NTHER WAY.

God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Scripture says he came so close to actually doing it, because he believed God, considering...e.g. REASONING that God would raise Isaac from the dead. Abraham had never seen God raise somebody from the dead. There was not even a written Bible. God did not tell Abraham He would raise Isaac. Abraham obeyed God. Why? Because He had faith that God would raise him from the dead; which he had deduced by sound reasoing. Therefore, He believed it and obeyed God.

If so, then explain how.

 

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Have you ever considered he might not be an atheist if you'd use somthing other than the Bible with him. Maybe he's not listening because he doesn't believe the Bible is God's Word. Maybe he thinks it's all just manmade nonsense.
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God doesn't tell me to use anything but his words:

Romans 10

13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

and....


Hebrews 4

12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


and....


Luke 8

10. And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
16. No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17. For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18. Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

A classic example of using logic is Paul on Mars Hill (Acts 17v22-34).

He approached them where they were - he talked about their religion (or superstition if you will), he then referred to their statue to the one they called the "Unknown God." From there he reasoned with them from Creation - "God that made the world" and gradually led them to "all men everywhere must repent." He took the knowledge of their gods and lead them to knowledge of the True God.

The result of reasoning and logic? See verse 34.

 

Michelle,

Have you ever even bothered to try?

I'm beginning to think you have, but his arguments have left you shaken, but you won't let go of your faith, which is great on one hand, not so great on the other, because, and I hope I'm wrong, you're sounding a lot like a person who loves her husband so much and has tried before using Scripture and not using Scripture, and maybe who's dialogues with the man she loves have left her shaken to the point that, because her husband uses "reason" to "refute" her, she has come to conclude that reason and faith are exclusionary.

Michelle, that's just plain untrue. Sound logic shows God exists. Atheism does not employ sound logic. Theism does. In fact, it is the only worldview that is completely logically sound. Logic confirms what we believe by faith in Scripture. Likewise sound logic shows that Christianity, including the veracity of Scripture, the reality of the Resurrection, and therefore the Lordship of Jesus, and therefore everything in Scripture is true. This confirms what we believe by faith.

You seem to be contending otherwise, that somehow logic can't or won't confirm or inform our faith. Certainly, I think you can agree that faith informs logic. I contend faith CONFIRMS sound logic as well and vice versa. That being the case, faith is logical, and what is soundly logical is of God. However, logic does not save. GOd saves, by grace through faith. I contend, however, that as your faith matures, so should your logic, and, for the believer the converse should also be true. I believe Scripture shows this and affirms this. I and others have shown examples of this several times. I will not quote more Scripture as you seem to ignore it.


Honestly, have you tried to use other means than the Bible? Did you go to my friend Matt's website, www.carm.org and read?

 

Also note V. 28...Paul uses Cleanthes Hymn to Zeus to show truth about God. Here is a very clear example of appealing to a source other than Scripture alone when presenting the gospel in order to show some truth about God, though not the full sweep of the gospel.

 

Michelle, I am not trying to trap you here, I really would like to see a scripture that says that all men KNOW God exists. Somehow I think this is right up there with "Cleanliness is next to Godliness."

So, you are saying your husband is an athiest, but he knows God exists, so he is really not an athiest? Does he know he is not an athiest? </font>[/QUOTE]Phillip,

Ecclesiastes 3:11 says that God has set eternity in their heart (the hearts of men), yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

The exegetes of which I am aware generally agree that this affirms that man intuitively knows God exist and is capable of using his faculty of reason to logically conclude inductively that He exists (like Arisotle), yet He willfully rejects the moral and ethical implications of that truth due to the effects of sin. Also, where He does understand God, as regenerate men can do, it is only imperfectly, though his understanding grows and matures over time, along with his faith.

Modern atheism seems to affirm this, given the way most atheists frame their atheism as negative arguments against theism. </font>[/QUOTE]I stand corrected Gene, I thank you.

This has always "seemed" like the truth, even with all groups in history who have reached out for some supreme being. I had just never had it specifically pointed out. I will make note of this verse. Thank you,

 

Thanks Gene - didn't have the source to hand so just left that part - virtually every verse is an appeal to logic.

He also quotes Aratus in verse 29.

 

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If it can't be done, then Christian Apologetes like Josh McDowell, Matt Slick, and Norman Geisler are just wasting their time. Moreover, they're work is wrong. After all, if logic and reason are always contrary to faith, then what can be logically reasoned apart from Scripture will always be untrue, including concepts like the historical reliability of the Bible and the resurrection of Jesus and, therefore, His Lordship...all of which we believe by faith and all of which have been shown to be logically true apart from simply "having faith."

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Actually I have numerous tapes by Kent Hovind the creationist, to which my husband (a proclaimed atheist) has also watched with me. As much as I agree with Kent, and all he shares, I have to say that what Kent provides, and how he goes about it did in no way, shape or form affect my husband, and in fact has turned him off. However, when I have shared the scriptures with him, he stops and gives me such a look, as though I can tell his heart was convicted of this truth. God's word is what will convict, not man's reasoning or logic outside of the scriptures. This does no good, as ONLY the word of God convicts the man's heart, and as the scriptures have also declared.


1 Corinthians 2

1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power:
5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

and.....


Hebrews 4

1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5. And in this place again, if they shall enter into my rest.
6. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7. Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

and....


Ephesians 6

10. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19. And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20. For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

We have been given enough light to come to the knowledge of God. The bible says we are without excuse. (Atheists, listen up)

Romans 1
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

But we cannot know our creator without revelation.

Genesis 1:16
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

We are children of the light, not of the night. God will bring us to Him through the witness of creation, and then he will give us true knowledge from His word.

 

Did Paul do wrongly in Acts 17 by appealing to extra-biblical sources and human reasoning to draw men to his all important message?

I am not going to copy and past the passage - you can look it up in your Bibles .

 

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1 Peter 3
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Can you give a reason and prove it without using logic?
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And scripture ALWAYS answers and defines scripture:

Romans 1

15. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


1 Cor. 1

17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


1 Corinthians 2

1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power:
5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Okay Gene I'm going out on a limb again, don't have my Bible handy, help me out. Does not the Bible say that we will see God in His creation?

I can tell you for certain that I questioned if God existed for many years before submitting to Him. I think God expects the hard questions, and many of mine could not be answered by the Bible.

After years of study of space, time, planets, the infinite universe, the human body and its billions of intricate perfectly (usually, except since sin crept in) working and synchronized systems down to the cellular level. These brought me to the awareness that a God HAD to create this, it didn't brew up from an organic stew with a few lightning bolts.

Michelle, I don't know what your husband does or what he likes to do, but this can be used to your benefit. I am NOT saying to stop using the scriptures, they are necessary, but you can also point out things around him.

It is obvious that you love him very much and you are afraid of not doing what is right. I would feel the same way. He sees your faith, there is no doubt about that by the way he answered on one of the posts.

See, in a way, your faith, although it comes from scripture, is going to effect him--in a way this is an external stimulus.

He just may not be interested in how the world came into being. Some people aren't. But, I bet there are interests that could be used to help. It sounds like he is listening, because he defended you here on this board. That means that you have already had an effect on him.

All we are trying to say is that: if God created this world and this universe, then everything about true science or everything we see is logical and logically pointing back to what God did and is doing. An athiest, believing in evolution will, no doubt not be viewing logic properly. They, themselves will admit that their belief is nothing more than a theory. It just may be that it is not what YOUR husband needs (creationism, etc.). It would effect me, because I grew up liking science and becoming an engineer; on the other-hand, he will have different interests. Try to appeal to those interests.

I hope this helps Michelle, I am honestly not trying to debate with you here, but to give you some ideas and I for one will be praying that the seeds you plant will successfully germinate and you get to see the fruit of your labors.

 

Check out Pslam 19 to see how Creation itself declares God. It is unique in that shows both GOd's natural and special revelation. Both of which show God's glory.

 

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but would only be based upon my own convicitions/feelings reasonings of evidences outside that of the scriptures themselves.
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That is what your beliefs are based on. You are going beyond what God said. Plain and simple.
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No, I am not going beyond what God has said. You are falsely labeling me and others and it is YOU and many others who have made the truth, look as though we have GONE BEYOND what God has said because of this false labeling slapped onto the truth. You err, because you have placed a label upon the truth, and those who believe it, and only look at this issue with the label, and opinions/comments of men regarding it, rather than the contents/truth within. This is judging based upon appearance, rather than substance and truth.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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See, Michelle, your primary authority is what God tells you. You admit it right here. God tells you to use the scriptures.

Even if God tells you that His scriptures are His Words, God "tells" you comes first. No wonder you don't believe in a logical connection to faith.

God also tells you the scriptures are the KJV, and you argue with me when I say that God tells me that my ESV is God's Word. Full circle.
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Phillip, How is it that God speaks to you? Do you believe God speaks to you? If so how? If not, why? How is it that you understand what God has said?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Michelle, I am not trying to trap you here, I really would like to see a scripture that says that all men KNOW God exists. Somehow I think this is right up there with "Cleanliness is next to Godliness."
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Romans 1.


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So, you are saying your husband is an athiest, but he knows God exists, so he is really not an athiest? Does he know he is not an athiest?
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The truth is there is no such thing as an atheist. All are given to know God exists, and therefore have NO EXCUSE.

Romans 1

18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle