Faith vs Logic II

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Sadly, many of the creationists are not any better (sorry folks, just speaking fact). If they are fake or show things that aren't true, then it makes it more difficult to accept the truth. I think this is a very sly thing that Satan does. I honestly couldn't stand to listen to a creationist because I knew some that were not entirely honest with their science.

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This is exactly what my husband believes, and how he sees it. Reading your post, was like reading my husbands words concerning this. Although, my husband has said and acknowledged that they would do much better approaching this with Faith, rather than science. However, I disagree in part, as I have many times told him God is the true scientist, who created it all and true science doesn't contradict God, nor reject him! I also have told him, both beliefs require at a certain point "Faith" and are not exclusively based upon factual, observable science (is this not what true science is?). Even though my husband understands FAITH, he does not HAVE FAITH, or has a misplaced faith. He has faith in a theory, falsely believeing it to be scientific, and ultimately I think he realizes that it is not logical, but illogical, and doesn't seem to bother him a bit, for he has come to the misconception that his false faith is not faith, but science and must be logical- if you understand what I mean. True logic is the truth of God revealed in the scriptures, however, there are many who see and approach issues with false logic, that to them, seems logical for whatever reasons.

In my life, what led me away from God was college (although my home life was not christian - but we knew of and learned and believed the basics and were taught those morals). Mostly because of some of the things I learned and read, and of course not having a solid christian family foundation. One course, and book that did the most damage to my faith, was Philosophy and the book we were required to read "Zen, and the art of motorcycle maintenance". My husband continually reads books. He loves to read, and always has and always will. These things are not bad, but I don't see that many of them have helped him, but discouraged him and has done great damage. In the end, ONLY GODS WORDS will convict his heart, and by my example and our discussions, and sharing with him the scriptural truth, hopefully and prayerfully these other things will soften his heart, that the sword of the Lord will finally penetrate it/him.


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I finally turned to God when I realized that I needed his help and realized that He had protected me often, even while I was lost. I did things that should have either killed me or caused major problems, but I survived. God knew I would be saved and He was watching over me.
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I praise the Lord for what He has done for you!
My husband has not ever had this. He has lived and continues to live a very spoiled, and protected life - no major problems. He has never had to struggle financially, or emotionally, not that I know of. He has an amazing ability to not let things bother him (just being able to live with me is a great testament to that - ha, ha, ha!), and he is very smart, and has always had great financial success. He has been greatly blessed with these things by God, but NEVER gives God the glory. My husband has a very kind and giving heart, but never gives God the glory - he denies and rejects God. I do not know why. I know he was brought up with the same things and knowledge about God that I also had. Many times I have asked him, why if when you were a child, did you believe God unquestionably, but now you don't? He said it wasn't that He just knew and believed God as a child, but that he was only taught to by his parents and society. He does not remember that every child is born knowing and believing in God unquestionably, until that certain age. He basically believes, everything is by man's own doing for society and survival. Sadly, he knows and understands that every person has a spirit, and life, but cannot explain why, and outright denies that this is everlasting. He believes when we die, that is all and our spirit also. But yet, he cannot explain where this comes from and where it will go.


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During the lost time, I would still look up at the stars and just wonder how all of this could come to be without somebody to draw the schematics. I can throw a handful of transistors, resistors and capactors (electronic parts for those of you who are not engineers ) on the table every day, fifty times a day and they will NEVER, EVER make a spread spectrum receiver that can receive 12 satellites in space and tell me where I am on this earth within 10 meters. (Your husband knows what I am talking about.)

Then I started looking at the living organism. I viewed a film (of which I can probably get you a copy), that does not preach, it just simply shows how COMPLEX the operations of cellular mechanics are in producing replicas of DNA and using the correct portions to create enzymes to function properly. It SLOWLY came to me that someone had to be a designer. Where did He come from? I don't know, but this wasn't possible without higher intelligence.
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My husband is well aware of these things. He sees the truth (even though it is false as I explained above - science so falsely called) or explanations/theories of the scientists rather than God's truth. He has read many science books concerning these things, but chooses to believe the theories and opinions of men, rather than the truth in God, which comes by FAITH. I think he is fighting faith because of the false logic, truth and wisdom of the world. Satan, is most assuredly clever, in that he has trapped many in thier false understanding that they are wise and logical. True wisdom is only in FAITH IN GOD, in the name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Cannot be found anywhere else. Jesus Christ is true wisdom, and the wisdom of and power of God. The world and it's wisdom, and false logic, continues to snare many into thinking that we are not sinners. This is why God's words are so important for the person to hear, as His words convict the persons heart of this truth. YOu see, many believe in God, through the creation, but as we see in the world, there is only One God, and One Saviour, who is Jesus Christ, and it is through and by the scriptures, to where one learns of and is convicted of this truth. Many could say, well since this world and the universe is so vast, and shows evidence of a designer, is all well and good, until that person decides that Allah, or Buddah, etc. are God. Therein lies a problem, that the scriptures are most definately required and needed for they are the truth and logic of God.


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So, in searching for the truth, God finally breaks us down and we realize; what does it matter if they think I am crazy, because eternity is more important than the short life we have here. I had to swallow my pride. Yes, my pride was my problem. Now, I don't CARE who sees me carrying a Bible. Who cares if I go to church (and don't think the neighbors don't watch you leave each Sunday, Bible in hand.)
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I agree, but this only comes through the words of God, and nothing else. These other things only help to soften the heart, and to bring one logically (scriptural truths) to conclusion that God exists, and that we are fallen creatures, but only the scriptures tell us why, and what to do, and what is required, and who the Lord is and what His will is for us. My husband believes that the bible is the works of men, trying to subdue other men. Even faced with the understanding that this cannot be, as we have 66 different books, by different authors, from different ages. My husband has watched a video called Prophecy 101 by Chuck Missler, which is an excellent tool to use, to show unbelievers or skeptics, that the prophecies of God are detailed, and ACCURATE 100%, and that those prophecies that have been fulfilled, were filled 100% accurately, which is a miracle, and NO MAN could do such a thing. This video did not do it for him. In fact, he fell asleep while we were watching it. I only hope and pray, that it helped to soften his heart. The thing I liked about this video, is that it focused upon the scriptures. The seed has been sown, and I just wait patiently, but faithfully that the Lord will bring this seed forth to fruitation, and that God will send someone, whomever He so chooses, to water the planted seed.

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Then, after time, I began to look to see where and how science fit with the Bible. I argued with Helen on this website that the gap theory absolutely HAD to be true. She stood her ground, didn't fight me, but simply kept shoving the facts at me. Finally, I accepted God's Word as it says and realized that if we weren't back there; how do we know God didn't create this in seven days? How do we know that God didn't make things in the process? Coal already in the ground? Science often looks for an answer without God. A reason why something happens or looks the way it does. While there are now many, many Christian scientists, who realize that we are forming conclusions first and trying to make the world fit those conclusions.

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Yes, but do you see that ultimately it was FAITH? (Hebrews 11) You surrendered your own false human reasoning and logic, because of FAITH in God's truth? Which ultimately brought light to the fact that it was false reasoning and logic you surrendered?


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Anyway, this has become long enough, but I just wanted you to see the steps I went through and maybe by reading this it will help you understand the steps your husband will have to go through. Obviously, he has already taken some of those steps; with your help.

Support him, if he will listen to scripture, teach him. See, it is a big step already that he will even listen to your scripture. I bet there was a time that he balked, or just did it because he wanted to please you by listening. It now sounds like he is listening on his own.

Anyway, he is free to read this if he wants and I wouldn't mind conversing with him if he has questions. I "been there, done that."
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Thank you very much Phillip, for sharing your testimony with me, and your advice and care and concern for my husband. I really do appreciate very much what you have shared, and ecspecially since you came out from the same situation that my husband is currently in. Thank you, and may the Lord richly bless you. I will tell my husband what you have offered, so he is aware of your kindness, and if in the future he has this desire. There has been others that have offered to help my husband with any questions he might have, that I have told him about, but he just shakes his head in acknowledgement, and that is all. But, at least he knows, right?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Isn't it interesting that we can debate each other, but when it comes to someones salvation everybody pulls together.

In regards to what you said about your husband, never having problems, etc. it is possible that he will start realizing that what he has now is a gift from God. God loves us even if we are not His children. The rain falls on both the just and unjust. This is a good reason that many people eventually come to Him.

In reality, as I look back, I was quite amazed that God took care of all of my needs even when I did not expect them to be taken care of.

You are right, without the scripture there to plant the seed, the plant cannot grow. I agree with that.

I agree with you, I wouldn't spend too much time trying to show him creationist theories and things like that. It usually doesn't mean anything to an engineer who is not saved. After he is saved, then he will become interested and start his search for truth in science.

A good example of a problem is Carl Sagan. He was NOT that popular as a scientist or researcher. He only became popular because of his charisma and movement to make the series Cosmos. He was very believable. He cast doubts in my mind at the time.

After I became a Christian I started realizing that he had an agenda. If he were just a good scientist, then he wouldn't harp on the issue of whether or not God existed all of the time. He would just have presented his science and observations. Too often today, scientists are presenting theories would be thrown out in a court of law by people who deal with facts. But, they get away with it in their own world of "guesses" and "opinions". They are unproven and many are simply opinions of what they think they observe in their limited human capacity.

When I said "pour it on" I did not mean to dump scripture on him until he rebels. I was saying that more of a tongue-in-cheek response to the fact that you said he would listen. If he listens to scripture and is not irritated by it, then by all means, read him scripture. It is obvious that you don't want to push so hard that you turn him off.

He fell asleep on the film about prophecy, but this doesn't stop you from making a comment here and there about how amazing it was that prophets hundreds of years before Christ accurately predicted that He would be born. That was a significant fact in solidifying my faith.

We will be praying for you and your husband; that you will have the strength to endure and that he will see the light.

 

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I agree with you, I wouldn't spend too much time trying to show him creationist theories and things like that. It usually doesn't mean anything to an engineer who is not saved. After he is saved, then he will become interested and start his search for truth in science.

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This is very true. He scoffs at this, and he really specifically dislikes Kent Hovind and many others, and says that they don't know what they are talking about, or that they are lying. Oh well. But what I have noticed that can work, is his skeptics questions. He found a skeptics website, with all the questions and supposed contradictions and inconsistancies in the Bible, that they say show evidence that the Bible is a fraud and proves God doesn't exist. I think they have 100, maybe more of these, that one night my husband printed off a few. This was when my Dad was visiting. Not that I can or did answer all of the questions on his list, too many to have time to in that night, nor the knowledge and/or understanding of them all (?), but the questions he asked were clearly explained with other scriptures - God has explained it all, and defined it all in the scriptures. He answers us with other scriptures. This WAS WORKING. I could see it in his expression. However, the thing that brought some doubt into the conversation, was when my Dad used his dynamic equivalence version and the footnotes to explain things along with this. This was, if anything what caused my husband to doubt what the Bible clearly said concerning those questions because it only added confusion, not consistancy, and relied upon the opinions of men and scholarship. Fortunately, and I praise the Lord that the Lord has given my Dad understanding in that issue.

I do believe, that it will be the word of God and quite possibly reasoning the scriptures with him, as the apostle Paul did with the jews, that will bring him to Faith in Jesus Christ. This debate thread has opened up discussions also with my husband, as I discuss with him things, and he is very open to discussion. He loves the scholarly discussions, and this gives the opportunity to share God's word of truth with him in a way that doesn't seem badgering or overwhelming him with scriptures. Whenever I quote scripture, it usually has nothing to do with what he is doing, but something I see on T.V., or out and about and in life that I vocalize the scriptural truth about. For example, and just a small example, maybe not very effective to him, but the other night we were on the road,in the car to pick the kids up from Awana's, and there was a black sports car beside us, with a picture of a dragon printed on it's side, and I said: "Oh great. Shows the spirit of this world, as God has said "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast". This is just one small example of many opportunities that come up. So please do not think I direct them at him necessarily personally all the time, but bring the scriptures out when in life they call for rememberence and are very relevant to the situation and opportunity- if you understand what I mean. My husband has also witnessed what the Lord has used me for in things with not only my children, but my Dad. My dad was caught up in a church that was very apostate (Sons of God, apostolic, charismatic type church) that was not only affecting our personal relationship with one another, but his faith (my dad). My husband saw these frustrations and sorrow I had, and heard the discussions, and saw and heard what transpired between us and how I dealt with it, what was said and what was done and how my dad came to the truth and came out of it. He has seen a change in my dad, not from me, but from the truth of God in the scriptures, that has transformed not only me, but my Dad also. This is another long story, but the Lord has also used this situation to show my husband his truth and bring glory to God.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Oh, I have no doubt about how you use the scriptures. You live with him and you know how far you can go without irritating him. We, of course, don't. I am sorry if I meant to imply that you weren't doing it right. I was just trying to confirm what you are doing.

 

Phillip,

I didn't get the impression at all that you were implying that I wasn't doing it right. I only wanted to explain to you "how" I go about doing this, for your better understanding. I am sorry if I gave you that impression, for that was not at all what I was implying, okay? You have been very kind and very encouraging to me, in how I might handle this with my husband, and I very much appreciate it. I just simply wanted to show you how by giving just a small sample of how.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

I, too, will be praying for your husband.

I understand where he is...I was there once. And, although he is willing to listen to the bible, you must remember that it does not mean to him what it means to you. To him, it is a collection of old stories and doomsday criers, not the word of God.

He sounds like a true child of science, one that must have cold, hard logic, concrete proof, not someone's personal convictions or tear-jerking story. He sounds like a man who thinks he knows what this life is about, and where he is going.

Although he does not give God the credit for the blessings that he enjoys, I am willing to bet that he would blame God if those blessings disappeared. And, since you say that he has never suffered want or despair, he sees no need for your Savior.

We will be in prayer for him, and for you. Your example before him will be the key factor. Not tons of Scripture, not nifty videos, not philosophical debate. All of these fall in line with what he expects. But a changed hearty and life...that is something that he has no answer for.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Thank you Trotter. I truly appreciate your comments, advice and most importantly your prayers. God bless you.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, here's what my mom & dad did for me, slowly causing me to head toward Christ, finally coming to Him at age 31 on Thanxgiving, 1979.

Mom asked me, casually, one day, "Ever wonder what gravity is made of, and what powers it? Ever study about it? I believe GOD powers it."

My main hobby at the time was making Tesla coils and other powerful electric devices, and I was into science big-time. I believed EVERYTHING had an earthly explanation. But Mom's comment about gravity got me thinking. Then one day, Dad stopped by to see my latest million-volt artificial lightning maker, and he said, "We both know electricity consists of a flow of electrons. But what does its partner MAGNETISM consist of? Science doesn't know, nor does it know JUST HOW a flow of electrons produces it, outside of 'lining up' the atoms of a ferrous alloy in a certain manner. The three forces most familiar to us are gravity, electricity, and magnetism, but we know so very little about any of them." This REALLY had me thinking in the middle of the night.

Then, my Christian wife showed me some facts about today's Israel. She reminded me that by all human odds, the Jewish people should have vanished centuries ago, either by death or assimilation into other peoples, as the Jebusites were absorbed by the Jews long ago. She showed me that Israel had risen from a collection of farms & villages to a mighty military power in just 25 years or so, ans, seeing as how they didn't seem that much more talented than their neighbors, they HAD to have had some 'outside help'. Over a period of several months, Mom & Dad showed me many prophecies from the Bible that had been fulfilled in my lifetime, and asked me to find any other book of prophecies whose words had come to pass as had those in the Bible. They also reminded me that as a cop who often had to handle rough trade, that I could be killed any day, that my chances of dying an unnatural death were somewhat higher than those of the CPA down the street. They asked me if I believed that people simply ceased to exist at death or if their souls lived on. Also, they knew I believed the "Big bang" theory, so they asked me, "Where did all the matter and energy that produced the big bang come from? Think about it...even if the universe had big banged & eventually collapsed upon itself a billion times, all the energy and particles HAD TO HAVE BEEN CREATED FROM NOTHING sometime or other! The realization that nothing can neither created from nothing nor destroyed into nothing led the Jew Einstein to God. Please think it over! This isn't a pipe dream by an aging couple, but REALITY!"

This, plus my wife's efforts, got me to reading the Bible and checking for the fulfillment of prophecy. (I'm a VERY skeptical person who MUST have proof for something for me to believe it!) I soon realized that I was NOT RIGHT WITH GOD, and that if I died right then, I WAS GOING TO HELL, FOREVER!!! But it STILL took me a few weeks to FULLY BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST AS LORD, SAVIOR, AND GOD, and to REPENT of all my sins, determined to renounce them for good. I "gave it up" to Jesus on Thanxgiving day, 1979, at my dad & mom's dinner table, and for the first time in my hate-filled life, since I'd been a baby, I broke down and cried...from remorse, from ecstasy, from feelings I cannot place into words...and have been trying to live as CHRIST would have me to live ever since.

It takes TIME to grow as a Christian. I read the Bible every day, but when I came to the "verse by verse, precept by precept" statements, I knew to be patient, keep reading the Bible, and do the work Jesus had for me...that I was NOT gonna rush out my front door and successfully evangelize someone right away every day...but that GOD would provide the opportunities as He wills, and for me to be ALWAYS READY, 24/7, to witness as those opportunities came.

Michelle, I don't know your hubby's interests, of course, but I hope my experiences will be of some benefit to you and him. Maybe you'll find some others' path to Christ helpful. Above all, PLEASE ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT TO SPEAK THROUGH YOU to him. And, yes, I shall pray that you're successful in steering him to Jesus.

BTW, my wife and I have found that, working together, the WHOLE of our work for God is greater than the sum of its parts! "Here's lookin' at YOU, kid!"

 

Thank you very much robycop, for sharing your testimony and for all of your advice, comments and prayers for my husband. I am so glad and praise the Lord for what He has done for you! Our Lord is wonderful and gracious!

Prophecy and Israel are most definately a helpful way of showing someone else the truth and bring someone to the Lord. This, in fact is part of the way the Lord used to bring me to salvation, and I have used this with not only my husband, but my unsaved sisters also. This, and the question I had about Faith. I never understood what Faith was, and I wondered for quite a few years, on what Faith actually was. I asked others, and they could not explain it. When I experienced this myself, and then read what I experienced in the words of God, I then understood. God answered my prayer about faith, at the same time He saved me I experienced Faith and then also showed me the answer in his words the more I read! I think I did not understand what Faith was, because I did not have it yet. But somehow, God continued to keep this question in my thoughts, or bring it to my mind. And the strange thing is, that He used my unsaved dad (at that time) to bring it to mind. The Lord eventually saved me, and gave me the understanding of Faith, and then used me, to help my dad. The way God works in peoples lives, is TRULY AMAZING and WONDERFUL!

Thank you again for sharing your testimony, and for all of your good advice. I will consider all the advice that has been given, and continue to stay in prayer about this. May the Lord richly bless you.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle