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Faith vs Logic II
- Thread starter Askjo
- Start date
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
If this strays off topic to KJVO v. non-KJVO it will be closed without warning.
Thank you Askjo for understanding what I was saying! There is the Logic and wisdom of God and the logic and wisdom of men which is contrary to the logic and wisdom of God. Logic and wisdom of God comes through our FAITH in God and what HE has said and done, to which is given to us by God himself. As God has said, that no flesh shall glory in HIS presence - to which includes our own minds. If we live in God's will, then therefore we must not only have FAITH, but OBEY and have the mind of Christ. This only comes from knowing, understanding and believing and obeying the scriptures, for it is the scriptures who reveal the way, the truth and the life to who is our beloved Saviour Jesus Christ. As our Lord has said:
John 5
36. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
and....
1 Cor. 1
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
and....
1 Corinthians 2
1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power:
5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
John 5
36. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
and....
1 Cor. 1
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
and....
1 Corinthians 2
1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power:
5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Michelle quoted to Phillip:
I have no problem with that statement.
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
AVL1984, get Michelle's point here? </font>[/QUOTE]Askjo, I got her point. I have no problem with her faith in the KJV, and I wouldn't want to take the KJV away from her. The truth, though, is not confined to the KJV. She seems to believe that it is, and this logic is based on a flawed premise. She consistantly states "FAITH IN HIS WORD OF TRUTH" as if the KJV is the only acceptable version. The MV's teach the same thing as the KJV. She has rejected proofs of problems involved in the KJV, yet she will use the same arguments presented to her against those who use MV's. Double standards just don't cut it.
Sorry to the moderators for this being "off topic", but since it was the subject of the first post, I felt it needed addressing.
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Michelle, are the MV's scripture? People who use the MV's read and comprehend and live for the Lord using the MV's. All doctrines and fundamentals are found in tact in the MV's. Do these people use their faith in God or their own human logic? They say that God led them to use their particular version. Do they have faith?
I have no problem with that statement. </font>[/QUOTE]As stated, I have no problems with it either. It is clear that our faith today has to come from God's Word.
In fact, even the miracles of the first century are logical when you believe that God is in control of this universe. Even the fact that God exists is logical as far as I am concerned. Therefore, my faith stems from not only the universe around me where we can see God's handiwork, but also from His Words, which tell us about our God.
No arguments here.
williemakeit
New Member
Wise Willie Logic:
Some say KJV is only way to heaven. Some say MVs will get you there, too. All say that KJV is an acceptable way. Logically, I use KJV.
Sorry, C4K. Couldn't resist.
Some say KJV is only way to heaven. Some say MVs will get you there, too. All say that KJV is an acceptable way. Logically, I use KJV.
Sorry, C4K. Couldn't resist.
I said:
Satan led Eve beyond what God said to where Eve wanted to go in her vanity. You said correctly that she lacked faith but her problem wasn't that she was too logical. As I said before, true logic and true faith compliment one another and NEVER contradict.
Logic is not subjective Michelle. You have falsely attached logic to human "reasoning" or "wisdom". People do apply it subjectively and incorrectly sometimes but logic itself is as concrete as 2+2=4.
We cannot have "our own" logic. Logic, like the laws of nature, can only be discovered or recognized, not created. It like nature was created by God.
Michelle said:
No Michelle. That is not reasoning nor logic. It is called rationalization... manipulation of facts in an effort to emulate reason while justifying a purely vain, usually emotion driven, desire.
Satan led Eve beyond what God said to where Eve wanted to go in her vanity. You said correctly that she lacked faith but her problem wasn't that she was too logical. As I said before, true logic and true faith compliment one another and NEVER contradict.
Logic is not subjective Michelle. You have falsely attached logic to human "reasoning" or "wisdom". People do apply it subjectively and incorrectly sometimes but logic itself is as concrete as 2+2=4.
We cannot have "our own" logic. Logic, like the laws of nature, can only be discovered or recognized, not created. It like nature was created by God.
I said:
Now if you can show something false in this statement then have at it. Otherwise, stop trying to play the victim.
Just as Eve was willing to give in to Satan's temptation to stretch the Word of God beyond what God said so that she could believe what she wanted, you attempt to stretch scripture so that you can believe what you want. You have followed Satan's example by speaking where God was silent.
God never said that the fruit would make Eve god-like.... and God never said the things you claim about the KJV.
You persistently take scriptures that say nothing about this issue then stretch them, putting words in God's mouth, to support what you have decided to believe in spite of any fact that is put before you.
Michelle said:
I never said anything about Mormons nor did I make any blanket statements about your "Faith in this issue". What I said was: "When God providentially provides us with the "sight" of facts, we cannot legitimately point to faith as an means of dispensing with the facts. That is dishonest. That is sinful."
Now if you can show something false in this statement then have at it. Otherwise, stop trying to play the victim.
The fact is that in your very next post after this response to me, you did exactly what I confronted you about. You posted long passages of scripture and attempted to make the stretch that they prove what you believe about version when they say absolutely nothing about versions.
Just as Eve was willing to give in to Satan's temptation to stretch the Word of God beyond what God said so that she could believe what she wanted, you attempt to stretch scripture so that you can believe what you want. You have followed Satan's example by speaking where God was silent.
God never said that the fruit would make Eve god-like.... and God never said the things you claim about the KJV.
I have not questioned your salvation and have not seen anyone question it. In fact, I have seen several that debate you pretty harshly affirm that they believe you are saved.
You gave an example of my point only two or three posts later. You have already done it once on this thread.
You persistently take scriptures that say nothing about this issue then stretch them, putting words in God's mouth, to support what you have decided to believe in spite of any fact that is put before you.
Indeed.
GeneMBridges
New Member
Straw Man fallacy...Nobody here and evangelical Christian agree that logic that is not informed by faith is not godly. What we disagree with is the assertion that faith and logic are exclusionary. Logic is not evil. God uses logic all the time. The very passages that Michelle quotes above do, in fact, form a series of logical statements, and, since we affirm Scripture is God-breathed, that alone shows that God uses logic, affirming that He is, therefore, a logical being. Paul in 1 Corinthians even makes a logical presentation regarding the truth of the Resurrection. If the resurrection did not happen, we are doomed. If it really happened, we can logically show it did, using the Scriptures, which we can logically show that are historically reliable and that the only logical conclusion can be that Jesus really did rise from the dead, and we thus prove, logically, that what we believe by faith is also proven by logic. In fact, many people, like Josh McDowell, will tell you that it was through logic regarding this very thing, that they came to faith in Christ. If faith is not logical, then that could not have happened.
Yes, human wisdom is portrayed in a negative light many times in Scripture. Again, nobody disputes this. However, "human wisdom" does not equate to logic. Logic is the process of sound thinking or reasoning. You, Askjo, can try to connote that all you want by saying absurdly that logic argues against God and the Bible, but that's just not true. When human reason is portrayed as being against God in the Bible, it is always, repeat ALWAYS, shown alongside the idea that man ignores sound reasoning (eg. logic) and intentionally rejects that and even suppresses the truth (Romans 1).
We contend it is a rejection of sound thinking (logic) to say that faith and logic are exclusionary. We contend that faith without logic is a precipitous place, because that, is, in point of fact, the foundation of moral and theological RELATIVISM. Please find us ONE, just ONE evangelical, orthodox theologian who knows the Scriptures that says "faith and logic are exclusionary concepts," or, more simply, "faith is necessarily irrational or illogical."
Faith can be illogical, yes, in that logic is either not understood or sound reasoning is not employed. However, we contend that, faith, when thought through properly is underpinned securely by logic. Faith is therefore logical. Logic informs faith and faith informs logic.
I personally find this kind of anti-intellectualism here most disturbing. Why? Because we live in an age where we are called upon more and more to give an answer for the hope within us. We live in an age where we NEED to be able to handle basic Christian apologetics. If you can not use logic and you do not understand that your faith is grounded firmly in logic and vice versa, you will NEVER be able to handle witnessing to a hardcore atheist or a cult member in a way that they can understand. It is no wonder they find us irrational and portray us the way they do.
I repeat faith MUST be logical ultimately, but that does not require we be able to logically prove or know or defend the faith in order to exercise faith in an embryonic sense. I do not reject the notion that it is good and right to believe in Christ as Lord and Savior "because the Bible says so," as a Christian. That's the core thing by which we are saved. However, I also affirm that that faith is grounded in real truths and truth is inherently logical, even if I don't know all the "in's and out's" at the moment. I also contend we need to get beyond that embryonic level if we are to make the most of the minds God gave us. It is sinful to do otherwise. IT CAN/SHOULD BE N
THER WAY. God says in Hebrews tht anybody that comes to Him must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that seek Him.
If that is not logical, then we are in serious trouble. Can we use logic to prove that God exists to somebody that has no respect for the Bible? YES....The Psalms say as much. The creation itself screams that He created it. Man, in his "wisdom" repudiates that LOGIcAL conclusion and rejects God and supresses the truth.
However, logic can prove our faith in God is correct. It's called the Cosmological argument. Aristotle figured out that there was an Unmoved Mover, whom the Athenians called the Unknown God. Paul used this as the springboard from which to preach and REASON with the Athenians from that very touchpoint. "God has set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they do not comprehend it." TRUE. Aquinas used Aristotle to develop the cosmological argument, and we still use it today to show God exists.
This same kind of logic goes on to show us what God is like. We reason that because we exist, God exists, and we reason that no actuality can communicate to any potentiality something that it does not have itself. We reason that the perfections within the Creator exist within creation in some measure, but imperfectly, because only the Creator is pure actuality. All else is contingency. We reason, eg. think. We use logic to think. This is undeniable, because to say we do not exist, we must exist,and to deny we use logic, we must use logic. Therefore, it can only be that we exist and we use logic and that our logic can be used correctly if we just put our minds to it. Now, since we know God exists (also logically), we say that God must reason (which Scripture says and shows), and, since perfect reason is perfectly logical, God must be perfectly logical, since God uses logic in Scripture (Scriptures already shown). Now, if God uses logic, and He is pure actuality, and illogic is unsound thinking, therefore a characteristic of a contingent being, not a purely actual being, we know that God can not, by His nature be illogical in any respect. This means, therefore, that God can not and would not condone the use of "illogic" in any sense. In fact, Scripture supports this in Romans 1 by showing how man suppresses the truth (which by definition is logical) when he even knows the truth about God. God requires faith. Therefore, since God is perfectly logical, the faith He requires of us needs to be informed by logical thinking. Faith, truly Godly faith, will always be logical. Logic, truly correct logic, will ALWAYS, lead to God, as long as it is based on correct premises.
You can have faith without logic. You can have logic without faith. However, it's not meant to be an either/or proposition. I think that those that say that they are opposing propositions are, in fact, afraid that if they say otherwise they will have to put their beliefs to the test. They fear logic, because they think it won't lead to God.
Folks, it won't. It doesn't. Liberals like to say that their logic "proves" God does not exist, that Jesus did not die or did not rise from the dead, and all kinds of things. However, like Norman Geisler said, EVERY...I REPEAT EVERY unbelieving objection to theism and Christianity contains a logically self-defeating premise. Logic can be sterile, but for the believer, it is one of the greatest tools we have to understand our faith and show to unbelievers that our faith is real and not just some irrational leap.
Yes, human wisdom is portrayed in a negative light many times in Scripture. Again, nobody disputes this. However, "human wisdom" does not equate to logic. Logic is the process of sound thinking or reasoning. You, Askjo, can try to connote that all you want by saying absurdly that logic argues against God and the Bible, but that's just not true. When human reason is portrayed as being against God in the Bible, it is always, repeat ALWAYS, shown alongside the idea that man ignores sound reasoning (eg. logic) and intentionally rejects that and even suppresses the truth (Romans 1).
We contend it is a rejection of sound thinking (logic) to say that faith and logic are exclusionary. We contend that faith without logic is a precipitous place, because that, is, in point of fact, the foundation of moral and theological RELATIVISM. Please find us ONE, just ONE evangelical, orthodox theologian who knows the Scriptures that says "faith and logic are exclusionary concepts," or, more simply, "faith is necessarily irrational or illogical."
Faith can be illogical, yes, in that logic is either not understood or sound reasoning is not employed. However, we contend that, faith, when thought through properly is underpinned securely by logic. Faith is therefore logical. Logic informs faith and faith informs logic.
I personally find this kind of anti-intellectualism here most disturbing. Why? Because we live in an age where we are called upon more and more to give an answer for the hope within us. We live in an age where we NEED to be able to handle basic Christian apologetics. If you can not use logic and you do not understand that your faith is grounded firmly in logic and vice versa, you will NEVER be able to handle witnessing to a hardcore atheist or a cult member in a way that they can understand. It is no wonder they find us irrational and portray us the way they do.
I repeat faith MUST be logical ultimately, but that does not require we be able to logically prove or know or defend the faith in order to exercise faith in an embryonic sense. I do not reject the notion that it is good and right to believe in Christ as Lord and Savior "because the Bible says so," as a Christian. That's the core thing by which we are saved. However, I also affirm that that faith is grounded in real truths and truth is inherently logical, even if I don't know all the "in's and out's" at the moment. I also contend we need to get beyond that embryonic level if we are to make the most of the minds God gave us. It is sinful to do otherwise. IT CAN/SHOULD BE N
THER WAY. God says in Hebrews tht anybody that comes to Him must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. If that is not logical, then we are in serious trouble. Can we use logic to prove that God exists to somebody that has no respect for the Bible? YES....The Psalms say as much. The creation itself screams that He created it. Man, in his "wisdom" repudiates that LOGIcAL conclusion and rejects God and supresses the truth.
However, logic can prove our faith in God is correct. It's called the Cosmological argument. Aristotle figured out that there was an Unmoved Mover, whom the Athenians called the Unknown God. Paul used this as the springboard from which to preach and REASON with the Athenians from that very touchpoint. "God has set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they do not comprehend it." TRUE. Aquinas used Aristotle to develop the cosmological argument, and we still use it today to show God exists.
This same kind of logic goes on to show us what God is like. We reason that because we exist, God exists, and we reason that no actuality can communicate to any potentiality something that it does not have itself. We reason that the perfections within the Creator exist within creation in some measure, but imperfectly, because only the Creator is pure actuality. All else is contingency. We reason, eg. think. We use logic to think. This is undeniable, because to say we do not exist, we must exist,and to deny we use logic, we must use logic. Therefore, it can only be that we exist and we use logic and that our logic can be used correctly if we just put our minds to it. Now, since we know God exists (also logically), we say that God must reason (which Scripture says and shows), and, since perfect reason is perfectly logical, God must be perfectly logical, since God uses logic in Scripture (Scriptures already shown). Now, if God uses logic, and He is pure actuality, and illogic is unsound thinking, therefore a characteristic of a contingent being, not a purely actual being, we know that God can not, by His nature be illogical in any respect. This means, therefore, that God can not and would not condone the use of "illogic" in any sense. In fact, Scripture supports this in Romans 1 by showing how man suppresses the truth (which by definition is logical) when he even knows the truth about God. God requires faith. Therefore, since God is perfectly logical, the faith He requires of us needs to be informed by logical thinking. Faith, truly Godly faith, will always be logical. Logic, truly correct logic, will ALWAYS, lead to God, as long as it is based on correct premises.
You can have faith without logic. You can have logic without faith. However, it's not meant to be an either/or proposition. I think that those that say that they are opposing propositions are, in fact, afraid that if they say otherwise they will have to put their beliefs to the test. They fear logic, because they think it won't lead to God.
Folks, it won't. It doesn't. Liberals like to say that their logic "proves" God does not exist, that Jesus did not die or did not rise from the dead, and all kinds of things. However, like Norman Geisler said, EVERY...I REPEAT EVERY unbelieving objection to theism and Christianity contains a logically self-defeating premise. Logic can be sterile, but for the believer, it is one of the greatest tools we have to understand our faith and show to unbelievers that our faith is real and not just some irrational leap.
Back to your original statement, Michelle, which is the subject of the topic...why should I, or anyone else, believe a doctrine...ANY doctrine...whose beginnings can be traced back to some SPECIFIC MEN, and is simply NOT found in, nor even remotely supported by Scripture...and is thus totally MAN-MADE? Isn't that LOGIC rather than FAITH, since such doctrines were NOT generated from KNOWN SCRIPTURAL TRUTHS? What is the source of FAITH in some MAN-MADE ideas about GOD'S WORD, how to worship Him, how to dress, how to wear your hair, use makeup, give or receive a blood transfusion, etc? Isn't it all a product of someone's imagination & NOT of GOD???
Our ability to reason and use logic is one of the things which sets us apart from the animal kingdom.
Jesus wholeheartedly approved of and often appealed to reason and logic:
Luke 11
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Wherever/whenever God asks humankind a question He invokes these divine elements (precious gifts) that He Himself has implanted within us.
HankD
Jesus wholeheartedly approved of and often appealed to reason and logic:
Luke 11
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Wherever/whenever God asks humankind a question He invokes these divine elements (precious gifts) that He Himself has implanted within us.
HankD
--------------------------------------------------
The fact is that in your very next post after this response to me, you did exactly what I confronted you about. You posted long passages of scripture and attempted to make the stretch that they prove what you believe about version when they say absolutely nothing about versions.
--------------------------------------------------
The FACT is that those verses of scripture DO prove it pertaining to this topic at hand, for this is where my FAITH and understanding in this comes from. This thread's topic is concerning Faith vs. Logic, and not KJV vs. MV'S.
For the most part, we are talking about the SCRIPTURES - the words of truth - the words of the Lord, NOT SOME LABEL/NAME ATTACHED to them.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
The fact is that in your very next post after this response to me, you did exactly what I confronted you about. You posted long passages of scripture and attempted to make the stretch that they prove what you believe about version when they say absolutely nothing about versions.
--------------------------------------------------
The FACT is that those verses of scripture DO prove it pertaining to this topic at hand, for this is where my FAITH and understanding in this comes from. This thread's topic is concerning Faith vs. Logic, and not KJV vs. MV'S.
For the most part, we are talking about the SCRIPTURES - the words of truth - the words of the Lord, NOT SOME LABEL/NAME ATTACHED to them.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
