Thanks Mike, let me move the quotation mark over one word as I intended it. Oh, and look, I duplicated the error in the next sentence too. Let me fix that. There, that's better. I guess that is what I get for copying/pasting. There, all done. :D
I never said "few" and I have already shown by the immediate context those "the father gives". The immediate context explains that "all" is referring via “that” to the grouping of those "the father gives".
faith
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by RON35951, Jan 20, 2005.
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Hi Drew;
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Those that were given were the disciples. The disciple were destined to be who they were and they all accepted there destiny except Judas. He resisted it. Yet even that was predetermined and as well accepted it but afterward regretted it and commited suicide I think because he knew he made a big mistake.
Are you trying to say that everyone who is saved is given before he has faith?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
rc,
You said,
This kind of tactic we would expect out of a first year Bible College student. And then they want you to explain the verse to them. Probably you too.
Check other commentaries and the various Greek words before you comment. After you have done your best, I'll touch base with you and give you my understanding of said verse.
Best regards brother . . . -
Believing is not a gift of God it is a command from God to those whom he created ALL mankind, in whom he instilled the ability to believe. We all have that ability!
Believing being what FAITH is must mean that We are commanded by God to have faith, therefore it is not a gift of God but something that we his created beings MUST POSSESS in order to be saved by God. -
Drew said,
That leaves FAITH! God the Son says "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish (face death) but have everlasting life (the Free gift of God to those who believe. So if you have faith in God, you live. If you do not have faith in God, you die...but the death of the one who has no faith is not due to sins it is due to lack of faith, which is something you are supposed to possess by hearing the Word of God, and which is something that God looks for in you.
No I do not believe in Universalism! NO I do not believe that All men will "eventually" be saved, scripture does not support such!
Please explain why a man who doesn’t believe dies if ALL of his sin has been atoned for? Revelation 20 14,15
And by the way, It is your traditional understanding that clouds your thinking!
"Being drawn" let's look at this. The scene is an upcoming Concert by your favorite performers, but you know nothing about it because you have failed to "hear the word" that contains the details. It is the word that would draw you to attend the concert, but you did not get the message. So you are not drawn by the word, and you miss the concert! But the concert had room for everyone, and all who came were admitted freely but only those who heard the word made preparation and attended. The Father gave us HIS Holy Word by which we are to be drawn to the SON. If you don't open the word you don't get the invitation to attend. The word can be and is given in many different forms, but if you don't act on what you hear....oh well! -
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Those that were given were the disciples. The disciple were destined to be who they were and they all accepted there destiny except Judas. He resisted it. Yet even that was predetermined and as well accepted it but afterward regretted it and commited suicide I think because he knew he made a big mistake.
Are you trying to say that everyone who is saved is given before he has faith?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Mike,
Yeah, It’s good to know that we can get in a laugh or two.
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Hey Wes,
You were saying to billwald in the post just before your response to me:
I don’t see how you can reconcile this scripture with your claim of:
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Hi Drew;
This is how it looks in the original Greek;
[37] Pan ho didôsin moi ho patêr pros heme hêxei,
A total of nine words.
In English;
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
A total of 23 words;
In Greek;
[37] Pan ho didôsin moi ho patêr pros heme hêxei,
Pan = all, Ho = that, didosin = to Give, Moi = Ego,or me, Ho =That, pater + Father Pros = motion from Heme = also ego or me, hexei= to have come.
Where the problem comes in now is that we don't have a dictionary to explain the Greek gramar from the period. We also have to note that "Heme" is a modern Greek word added by translaters for gramatical purposes. I'm not a Greek master all I really know is what I have read about the subject so just how they are able to even define a Greek word from a codex is best left to scholars and we all rely on what they claim. We have to admit that they do have religious convictions of there own that can't help but influence what and how it is translated.
Which is why I'm intrested in the original Greek.
So here you are discussing English gramar which has nothing to do with the Bible.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
Hey Mike,
I don't understand your point of contrasting the number of words used. I don't find it even relevent to our discussion.
Anyway, the neuter doesn't make the case it merely solidifies it. The context still shows that the grouping is refering to all of those who will come to Jesus for salvation. -
Hi Drew;
What neuter would that be?. If the gospel is about salvation how in the world could it be neutral ?
Your confussion about the gospel stems from your mentors. If you disregard what they have taught you then you might see the forest as trees, instead as something different. The scriptures aren't about one verse. It's about the Salvation our messiah offers, and the only way to understand it is to consider it all. Not one sentence at a time.
Your trying to apply what was written about and to the disciples to your self in John 6. A chapter by the way that is not a parable. Parables are what was spoken to the masses.
My showing you what the verse looked like in original Greek was to show you that what we realy have for Bibles today are nothing more than the translators best guess. and by the way the Greek I show you was from the same codex used in the translation of the NASV.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
If Calvinists do not accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior because this is considered a ‘work’ in activating salvation, how do you know when you become one of the elect? Or does this happen in diverse ways to each Calvinist?
God wants us to know we are saved. This is proven out in John 1:12; Romans 8:16; and in I John 5:13,18. God does not offer and give a ‘hope so religion’ but ‘a know so faith.’ ;) -
Hi Ray;
Mike -
The topic is faith.
I do not think anyone would believe and/or say that the Pharisees were saved people. They tithed even of their condiments as noted in Matthew 23:23. Be reminded that Jesus said the following words. ‘ . . . and ye have omitted the weightier matters of the Law, judgment, mercy and faith.’ Let’s talk about faith in Jesus. He is telling them that they should have faith in Him. And our Lord goes on to say, ‘ . . . and these ought ye to have done .
‘Have done’ are action words, meaning that God would have like to see their response to His being the Son of God, our Savior. I believe the Greek word is {poiasai} which is in the aorist active infinitive tense. It is my understanding that the aorist tense means an action that has a beginning. The combined aorist active tense means that, in this case, faith has a beginning point and will continue on into the future. {until we stand in His Presence} Feel free to check your favorite Greek scholar.
This being said, faith in Jesus Christ requires a human response or there is no real salvation. Faith has a beginning point and will carry us through, as noted in Philippians 1:6.
Jesus was saying to the Pharisees, ‘You ought to have had faith in Me and still could have tithed the ‘mint, anise, and cummin.’ Faith requires an active response to Jesus Christ, thus the {aorist active infinite tense}.
Faith in Jesus requires an act of human consciousness, meaning an act of the will.
Jesus waited for the Pharisees to respond in faith, but it never happened. The remained 'blind guides.' -
Hey Mike,
Have you been watching Benny Hinn? You're misrepresenting my words again. Go back and read carefully. -
Hi Drew;
I don't watch television haven't got the time but I think you've been listening to the Pope ;)
Try again but remember we have to accept the responsibility of our own words so be as informative as possible. I'm not a mind reader.
The word "neuter" just didn't fit the context. After all it has so many possible meanings. :D
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
And remember folks, Bob Barker says, "Don't forget to spay or neuter your pet." :D -
ILL,
I guess Jesus made a mistake when He was transliterating the greek/aramaic (take your pic) when He pointed out the VERY important tense used by the Hebrew "I am" not "I was" ...from that Tense He could lay the doctrine of God is the God of the living.... I guess He needed your help in knowing that you can't trust man and they didn't have any "lexicons" so He might be wrong! Maybe Jesus isn't the I am maybe He is the "I was"... I think God is faithfull to give us teachers faithfull to the very yod and tiddle and had many translations to easily translate from one language to another with the EXACT understanding of the words... Especially the Septuagent... If we don't trust that you CAN NOT believe that Jesus was born of a VIRGIN... just a young woman! -
Unless of course you believe the prophesies about the Messiah, then you cannot possibly confuse the issue of Mary's virginity without denying the deity of Jesus, the Son of God!
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Sorry, I didn't intend to skip over this. Calvinist do accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. They just believe that God is the author and perfector of our faith [we are not co-authors]. Calvinists are also confident of their election because they know that they don't have to trust in themselves for their faith that justifies, they trust God for it. The evidence of our faith confirms our election. -
Further, if faith is the evidence that confirms election, then every mormon, muslim, etc. is elected, they all claim faith in a deity they call God.
I am happy to see you confess that faith belongs to the one possessing it, and is not a "gift" from someone else.
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