Hello Alan. :)
'If'? You mean since?
No. :)
He worked in order with creation producing the fish after the water and the birds after the air and the prison after the prisoner.
Maybe He did not want to give the Devil and those who fell with him a clue. Maybe Satan would have hung back if he knew there was a place for him if he got it wrong.
"What's that place over there Lord?" "That's Hell where I am going to send you Satan." :)
There you go with the 'if' again. I see no reason to think that election took place anywhere but in eternity and I don't normally try to sort any order out of eternity as God has always known everything.
Since He has why does He keep creating people for Hell?
The word means one that cannot be saved. A Christian was never a reprobate. We were separated from God - we went astray and the Good Shepherd was sent to find us.
john.
Fatalism Bites The Dust
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by GordonSlocum, Feb 3, 2007.
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But you still didn't answer the question? Why does Jesus state Hell was created for the Devil and his angels when God knew every person whom He would ever cast in there. Especially when you contend that God created some as vessels for destruction which are specifically designed to be cast into hell.
But as I said it was only a peice for fun and thought. Thanks for playing. Now back to the OP. -
When men were lead my the Holy Spirit to pen the words...."Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world"...what time frame do you feel God wanted us to think this took place?
1) Was it before the world and time?
2) Was it yesterday?
Or was the goal here just to trick us?
If we do not know..then are all words of time found in the Bible to be taken the same way? Like "day of the Lord. Can we believe the Bible when it says this will come some day, or is this just another time frame we can not believe? Was Christ in the tomb 3 days, or was this too a trick? "One day is like a 1000 years", does it mean this, or is this just anough trick? Could we say that "one day is like 2 hours" and it be the same?
I for one believe the Bible when it says, before. Before means before, not after. -
We ALL know (or at least should know) All things were known to God before He began anything (before the foundation or creation of the world), otherwise He would be playing catch-up all the time and fixing He distasters He didn't account for.
I am stating and have repeatedly stated - No one knows the order of How God decided ANYTHING. It is purely philosophical to set up a chronology or 'our' apparent logical order of what and when God decided what He decided upon. All we know is that He knew it all and not when He knew anything. To set up a logical construct (In our opinion) is not bad but when it becomes the bed rock of a theological belief system you have a huge problem of making God in mans image.
The part about Hell being created for the Devil and his angels should make one wonder why God did not make it for everyone whom God created for such. If God choose Satan to fall and to decieve man, who in turn also fell BECAUSE God predeterminded them to be vessels of wrath before EITHER (angels or man) WERE CREATED BEINGS. So the question still stands at the words of Jesus, If all things were established in which every entity has a predesigned course. Then Why was hell created for the Devil and his angels? So then when did election take place...with regard to what God knew when hell was created (or thought of being created) Did God determine man to fall that some will be forever damned? Then it would stand that hell was created for them as well.
Anyhoo... Before this goes much further (if I actaully get responces back) I will move this to a thread of its own since I ony brought it to prove thought on the Op. I don't really desire it to take on a life of its own in THIS thread so if you want I can place it up on another -
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oops, a double posting
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I think the real issue is that we let "them" think for "us"
Do the work yourself and leave them out of it.
Have you read books where every other paragraph is a quote. That drives me up a wall. Do the authors not think for themselves? There are times when the writing necessitates the quoting of the author. That is called a review or critique of the person's work. But if you are supporting a view that you have accepted - do the work yourself. We all know what Jack and John wrote, but what do you say apart form them?
Do it yourself. Read the Bible and tell us what you see the text saying. You don't have to lock yourself into a particular view.
You might say that "on the surface it looks like it says this". However, later in the text you see other information that looks like a contradiction. Now you doubt and you wonder. What are your thoughts? You don't have to lock yourself in simply by expressing your thoughts and what you observe. Always reserve the right to re-consider and change your view. But stop letting these so call commentators dictate to you what to believe.
Write your own commentary. You can. Lay it out and define it based on what you observe. Yes, you will re-write and revise and re visit but in the end it is your work.
You might say, but they are smarter than me. Hog wash. if their smartness equals right then we are in deep trouble. Look at all the very intelligent people in the world and look how many view they hold.
I see a heart that pumps blood. They see the same heart and they can tell about all the different parts, but in the end it is still a pump weather I know the names and function of the individual parts. I don't want to over simplify it but - Do the work yourself. Study to show yourself approved. That means you do the studying of God's work and stop letting Calvin or Arminus think for you. -
Johnny --
You misconstrue what I said.
Two things, john: 1) They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." How's that gonna happen unless they are "elect?" "regenerated?" 2) Lazarus can tell them and they will BELIEVE and not come here. Did Abraham deny any of this? Did Abraham tell the rich man, "No, it's beyond that. They aren't elect?"
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J.D. said:Sky, It says the dead (I take that to mean the lost) will be judged according to their WORKS.Click to expand...
WHEN were names written/not written in the book of life?Click to expand...
Besides, there is intriguing evidence that ALL are written in the book of life and that those who die in unbelief are "erased!" :D Whatdaya think of that?
skypair -
GOOD works! That book of GOOD works will be there are EVERY judgment -- even the Bema (1Cor 3). It's the "record" of our "gold, silver, precious stones."Click to expand...
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J.D. reply is in bold.
Allan said:That is EXACTLY what Gill did! He doesn't explain why the verses of scripture that ARE contrary actually mean the same thing. He states them and then does the jig all around them and never speaks to the issue of their non-conformity. You also seem to neglect that Fauset used more scripute to actually establish what he was showing the Context stating. The big difference I saw between Gill and Fauset is that Fauset established contexually his point while Gill expounded his presupposition to the single aspect of the text making it nothing more than a pre-text. He expounding would have worked in other places of scripture but the context kept his discertation outside the context at hand. IMO
You must not have read it, or you can't be serious, or, you're blind.
Because (though it is hard for you to hear this truth) God's plan is that man choose according to the truth He reveals to them - they can accept it or reject it. Of course He has the power to save everyone, but why save those who reject that which you reveal to them since it is was God how decreed that men can either beleive or reject His revealed truth. Even you as a Calvinist believe man has a free will - so that makes you a free willer just as much as me. You state that man freely stays in their condemned path. You are also correct in that man of himself and by himself will never, and I do mean not ever, will ever seek after God. But God is the difference in man free will. Jesus is the light that enlightens ALL men that come into the world, and the Holy Spirit has come to convict the WORLD (mankind) of sin, of righteousness, and of the Judgment to come. By these a man does not say I want to be saved now, but cries out for mercy KNOWING he deserves None but begging for some display thereof IF possible. And we know that it is, for none but those He foreknew would call upon His name in such a way.
I don't believe in human free will. Only God's will is free.
You REALLY need to study more on the Baptistic doctrine concerning mans choice. Please share with us some of those who teach that God is answerable to man choice. How is that even possible when man can not be saved unless God reveals truth via the Holy Spirit concerning His son the Lord Jesus Christ. It is all of God and forever will be. And please, keep the ad hominems at home. It has nothing to do with 'human self-determination' for no man seeks after God of or by himself. Salvation COMES to man, man does not call it down from God. As I said, study more or find someone that actually understands their doctrines or understands the doctrines they are trying to deride.
What is "Baptistic" doctrine? You don't say it with your mouth because you know better, so why do you teach it in your theology? How many times has it been said on BB "YOUR salvation depends on YOUR choice"?
Again false due to complete unsubstantiated claims of 'freewill theology leads to a God (sic) that is not supreme. Your issue it that you do not understand the concept of actual freewill theology. Wesleys God was supreme, Moodys God was supreme, Sundays God was supreme, Sankeys God was supreme, the early church fathers such as Cleament of Alexandria, Eusebius, Athanasius, Gregory the Naziazen, Prosper and many other whos God was not inferior but Supreme. Present day freewiller luminaries such as Kittle, Vines, Vincent, Souters, Hastings, Walter Martin just to name a few whos God is total and supreme. The list continues and goes down throught the ages back to Paul, Peter, and the rest of the Apostles, disciples, Jesus, and futher still to the OT prophets and Priests who God is supreme.
I was a freewiller for 23 years as a deacon, pastor, teacher, and preacher. All in an IFB church. Don't tell me I don't understand freewill theology. I know what the conclusions are. You can call them strawmen if you want, but they're still there. Wesley, Moody, etc., said that God is supreme, and in their heart they probably did believe it because that's why they knew better than to say that He isn't, but their theology says differently.
Your right and God determind that man has the resposiblity to accept or reject the truth that God will reveal to them. Your biggest issue as I see it, is that you (nor anyone else for that matter) have no idea how God determind anything nor the extent of His determining except for that IN His determining all thing work together for His purpose, plan, and good pleasure. We can see little snips or small fuzy shapshots at best. From there doctrines are established upon principles that can not be co-oberated nor substantiated via scripture but in them mind of finite man making God what into what man best guesses
You said "His determining all thing work together for His purpose, plan, and good pleasure", so I see we agree on something.Click to expand... -
He DIDN'T hate Esau personally -- nor any of us individually. You are making inappropriate application in this instance.Click to expand...
He DIDN'T hate Esau personally -- nor any of us individually. You are making inappropriate application in this instance.Click to expand...
Do you know when that was actually said? Mal 1:2, john. Hundreds of years AFTER they were dead.Click to expand...
Wrong again.
Do you see your error yet? God has forgiven everything. But He won't make anyone love Him. How can He? By coddling them? spoiling them? By requiring nothing of them? Think about it, john.Click to expand...
Go and read the parable where the seed fell into good soil and then come back and tell me where you got your heart of flesh from. Mk 4:1-8.
The fatalist is one who believes in fate, not God.
You said it! If you think only the elect are saved rather than that the saved are elect, you're a fatalist, right?Click to expand...
Jesus did not die for everyman's sin. Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " 1 Sam 3:14. Deal with the scripture and correct my error please. As far as I see no atonement, on oath, was given for the house of Eli.
True, they could not be restored to their temporal positions on account of sin. Sn follows you all your life unless God has mercy.Click to expand...
john. -
J.D. said:I'm sure God will be impressed with your good works at the GWT. I'm hoping for grace.Click to expand...
And I hope you are not merely "hoping" for grace. That would indicate you don't know you are "elect," J.D. Do you know whether you are saved or not? :tear:
J.D. -- even the "saved so as by fire" do not have bad works to account for. They have to be cleared of the thoughts of men (wood), the wisdom of men (hay) and the glory of men (stubble) that they still believe, 1Cor 3! Read and underline the words thoughts, wisdom, and glory that appear after the "saved so as by fire," J.D.
skypair -
Why didn't you...
...respond to the first part of my post? on God's love and unbelief?
johnp. said:The scripture clearly states that God chose to hate Esau and the word used is detested. He detested Esau and He detested Edom because they came from Esau. Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Rom 9:13.Click to expand...
God says one thing and you correct Him. Rom 9:12 ...she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."Click to expand...
The fatalist is one who believes in fate, not God.Click to expand...
Go and find out the difference between fate and determinism,...Click to expand...
You agree then, limited atonement is proved.Click to expand...
skypair
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