Final Authority and Final Canonization

This is an illogical, poorly thought out, flat out wrong statement.

1. Even the most poorly edited Greek NT (Westcott & Hort in my view) has probably 95% of the original manuscripts, even if they leave out verses, as do the critical texts. (I'm guessing here from long experience. I'll have to look it up.) That's incredible! And someone would say that is not the Word of God?

2. The Greek NTs DO match in content. For example, you can find every single name of Jesus Christ in any Greek NT you pick up. Not one has been deleted (though an individual mention of that name might not be in all the mss.)

3. The Greek NTs DO match in doctrine. You can get any of our precious doctrines from ANY Greek NT. I've read through completely and translated the TR and Byzantine Textform, and pretty much the UBS/Nestle's too. I defy anyone to give me a doctrine that I can't find in any and every Greek NT I pick up. The only possible exception is the doctrine in the longer ending of Mark, but guess what: all Greek NTs include that, even if in brackets.

I defy Makihaya to prove me wrong on any of these points.

 

When did the first books get written down then of the bible?

genesis, isaiah was written byt he prophet Himself, at least Jesus thought so!

Same with Moses for much of the "law"

David forthe psalms, solomon for the proverbs...

Did they write down originals or not, or were they sll made up by the KJV team in 1611?

 

thiose are VERSIONS of the Bible, and I refer to the original language texts when i mean "Bible", and there are several good versions translated off those texts today!

 

We have Thousands of manuscripts fopr the greek NT documents, and we have some tht were copied within a century of the original writtings...

NOTHING like that exists for classical literature of that era...

And MUCH of the suppossed differences between the various greek texts would be in variant readings, such as one could say the lord jesus, another jesus the lord, Christ jesus, jesus christ etc so NOT nearly as big a difference as it first seems!

And even with these differences, the greek texts agree with each other at least 95 % of the time, and there are NO doctrines that are disputed, altered, not included in any of the texts, as ALL have same doctrines expressed!

 

You cannot honestly say "the bible" or "all bibles"
are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult)
Greek, Syrian, Latin, German, English, French, Spanish, etc.
bibles which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

You cannot honestly say "the Greek N.T." or "all N.T. Greek texts"
are given by inspiration of God. There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts which do not match in content,
volume or doctrine.

------------------

When an individual says “ the original Greek ” , “ the Greek ” ,
“ the original text ” , " original language " ,' “ the original manuscript ” , etc.,
that individual is speaking like a parrot or a deceiver. There are over 24
reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts which do not
match in content, volume or doctrine.

 

You keep repeating earlier things that you posted before, but you are not discussing what has been posted in response to your misleading and faulty claims. Are you posting like a parrot repeating the same things over and over?

It was already properly pointed out and proven that a consistent application of your assertion would attack the honesty of the KJV translators.

 

The topic is final authority and final canonization.

The question is do you have scripture.

Please answer the question and state your theory of final authority

and final canonization.

 

You merely repeat or parrot your same comments that have already been answered.

We have Scripture. We have no need for your man-made theory.

 

Be sincere, answer the question and state your theory.

 

You don't know the meaning of the word 'sincere'.

 

KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
not walking in craftiness,nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
but by manifestation of the truth commendingourselves
to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

 

It is undeniably true that God's preserved Word in the original languages must govern the translation since the translation cannot govern what it was translated from. The very word "translation" by definition when used to refer to something that is translated from one language into another language indicates its need of a source or sources from which to be translated. By reason of this definition concerning what constitutes it, it is unequivocally termed a “translation.“ Of what is it a translation? A translation is a translation as a necessary consequence of its being translated from another language source. What is more essential to the being or constitution of a translation than the source or sources from which it was translated? A correct analytic statement is true by virtue of the meanings of its terms alone. It is logically and Scripturally impossible for a translation by men that were not directly inspired by God to be the ultimate authority beyond which there is no other. A translation cannot be an exact duplicate of the originals; otherwise, by definition it is not a translation. By definition, a translation cannot be the translation of nothing. A translation without any underlying texts or sources from which to be translated would not by definition be a translation. A translation is not free from all causes and independent of all sources and authorities. By definition, a translation is of necessity translated from and based on something in another language or languages. The source of a translation would be one of its causes since it would be necessary for the source to exist before a translation could be made from it. Therefore, the correct use and true sense of the term translation indicate that a translation is an effect or consequence that presupposes a cause or causes. Since a translation is an effect, it cannot be the rule or authority greater than its sources and causes. Can an effect surpass the authority of its cause? Can the antecedent be denied and the consequent affirmed? The original language texts cannot be and not be the authority, cause, and foundation for a translation at the same time. In his commentary on Matthew, Charles Spurgeon observed: “There is no possibility of the effect being higher and better than the cause” (p. 44). Francis Turretin asserted: “That which has a fallible foundation cannot be infallible because the effect cannot be greater in every respect than its cause” (Institutes, I, p. 39). A cause would need to be first in time, order, and authority over its effect. The necessity of a translation being dependent or being an effect or consequence indicates that it derives or acquires its authority from a greater authority. A translation that is not direct revelation from God is not independent and underived since that translation depends on its antecedent underlying texts for its authority.


By definition, the final or ultimate authority is independent of and above all other authorities. By definition, the final authority is the first and foremost authority, before and above all others and beyond which there is no other. The final authority has primacy, pre-eminence, predominance, and power over all other authorities. The final authority existed before 1611. The final authority is not dependent on anything else for its text and authority. The true ramifications of a proper definition of final authority and of a translation conflict with the KJV-only claim that a translation in 1611 can be the final authority. The translation cannot give power, authority, credence, or inspiration to its underlying sources or texts. The inherent nature and qualities of a translation after A. D. 100 cannot be greater than the inherent nature of the texts from which it was translated or the earlier translations of which it was a revision. If an inherent quality is supposedly absent from the underlying original language texts, how can it be present in a translation of those texts? The underlying texts or sources must have greater authority than the translation since that translation is derived from those texts and acquires its authority from them. A translation must be built on its foundation [the texts from which it was translated] and should not be separated from it. A translation rests on the foundation of its underlying texts, and not the foundation on the translation. The words of a translation built on and made from the preserved Scriptures in the original languages is not more fixed and solid than their underlying foundation. A translation may be and should be representative of its underlying texts, but it cannot have greater authority than them or be superior to them. By virtue of its origin as a translation by men that were not directly inspired of God and that did not receive direct revelation or Scriptures by direct inspiration, it is clear that such a translation cannot be correctly regarded to be the final authority beyond which there is no other. By the proper standard of the greater authority of the original language words, the derived authority of a translation will be justified. From the rules or laws of good and necessary consequence and of non-contradiction and from the correct and true sense of the terms “translation” and “final authority,“ it can be correctly deduced that a translation is not the final authority beyond which there is no other. Translations of something must all alike be compared to that something.


A fundamental fallacy in the KJV-only view is the assumption that a lower, lesser, dependent, or secondary authority (a translation) can act as the final authority over a higher or greater primary authority (God's preserved Word in the original languages). The backwards reasoning of the KJV-only view denies the greater authority of the antecedent sources while it tries to assert the authority of the consequent translation. The extent of authority claimed for the KJV usurps for it a superior or greater appointment and designation than for its underlying original language texts. The KJV-only view reverses the proper order of authority when it implies that a translation printed in 1611 is greater in authority than its underlying, antecedent original languages texts. This reversal is evident in the fact that no meaning is permitted to be understood from the preserved words in the original languages that is not in effect sanctioned by the interpretation of the actual secondary authority [the KJV]. If KJV-only advocates actually begin with the preserved Scriptures in the original languages as the proper and greater authority before 1611 and before coming to its translation into various languages, the KJV-only view’s claim that a translation (the KJV) should now be considered the final authority is denied in the very process. The Bible does not teach that the Scriptures that God gave in the original languages by inspiration to the prophets and apostles will be nullified and replaced by a subsequent translation in 1611. It is God who chose and determined in which languages He would give the Scriptures by inspiration to the prophets and apostles. Thus, it was God who established the source of authority from which translations was to be made. It is the greater authority of the preserved Scriptures in the original languages that grants, substantiates, or establishes the proper derived authority of a translation. God never ordained the irrational, incoherent, ludicrous, or contradictory idea of a supposed absolute infallible translation that does not need to conform to the sources from which it was translated. According to the law of non-contradiction, would a translation need to be compared to and evaluated by its underlying texts from which it was translated and from which it derives its authority or would a translation need to be made irrationally into an independent and final authority?

 

I'm Dizzy Now...

Rick...your particularly "wordy" style of circular reasoning and endless argument remind me of the type of mental gyrations that those Catholic guys (Thinkingstuff and Walter and others) down in the "Other Christian Denominations" forum use to try and justify and defend their RCC doctrine. I know this is not the same...but it feels that way when I read your stuff. I haven't posted much in the last week or two in here because I'm just tired of constantly feeling like I'm :BangHead:. You haven't changed my mind one bit and you never will. I know I'll never change your mind either so arguing just for the sake of doing it is pointless. I know I have God's Word in my hand. I'm content with that. We need to be busy about living lives that are surrendered to the Lord according to the Word of God so He can accomplish the work of conforming us into His image...and accomplishing the work that He commissioned us to do in the time that remains.

Bro.Greg Perry :saint:

 

KJV Holy Bibles are the most published, read and loved bibles of all time.

KJV Holy Bibles are the most published, read and loved books of all time.

( USA Bible Society 2013 )

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These are scientific facts, not circular reasoning !

 

logos, I don't even read your posts.

The topic is final authority and final canonization.

The question is do you have scripture ?

Please answer the question and state your theory of final authority and final canonization.




.

 

It is not surprising that you do not read my posts. Is that so that you can try to pretend that you have not been answered?

You ask for a discussion of final authority, but you will not read it when it is presented.

Perhaps you do not what to know the truth that conflicts with your unsupported theory.

 

Bottom line is what was inspired text from the holy spirit?
the originals as penned down by isaiah. moses, peter, paul, john or the version of the KJV?

 

NEVER ARGUE WITH A FOOL


It is best not to argue,
But if you do at all,
Never do so with a fool.
A fool can defeat all.

He does not care for the facts.
He does not know debate.
He’s a stranger to reason.
Logic he can negate.

In the end the fool will win,
His logic is so strong!
Decides what he does not like
And then it must be wrong!

It’s better to keep quiet
When challenged by a fool.
Else, to prove his own wisdom,
He will make you a tool.

It is hence my policy
To not respond to those
Who ask questions not to learn
But to be bellicose.



M C Gupta
25 October 2008

 

Fact:Erasmus wins the prize.The Greek text (and backtracked Latin text for portions of Revelation) with his rushed first effort was the most poorly edited.

 

You do not understand the Purified Text Theory.