I agree that Jesus cannot fail, but the assumption that if Christ wants someone to come to faith and they refuse then it is a failure on Christ's part is absurd. It's as absurd as thinking that when we sin, which he likewise doesn't want us to do, that it is HIS failure rather than ours.
No, I was pointing out the fault in his analogy, which is the exact same fault as his theology. ( I assume you are talking about my comment to Luke about the victim never breathing.) This is why he quickly pointed out that the analogy didn't represent Calvinism...he recognized that it too clearly pointed out the inherent weakness of his position.
You ignore the historical context of this verse to make it apply to a your soteriological system. At that time, while Christ was on earth, the Jews were being hardened in their rebellion and FOR THIS REASON they could not believe Christ. You think its because they were born totally depraved and thus couldn't believe due to some inborn natural condition of their heart, but what does scripture actually say is the reason?
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
Only a remnant from Israel were set apart to fulfill the prophecy and God's purpose in electing Israel to carry the message of redemption to the rest of the world. These are the ones the FAther gave to His son. Once he was lifted up after the hardened Jews kill Him on the cross the Father would send the message of redemption to the entire world and DRAW ALL MEN to himself. (John 12:32)
Five questions??
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, May 11, 2012.
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Brother, if you can tear up soil like you can scripture, come here where I live at and you'd make a killing plowing up people's garden ground for them, so they can plant it.
Have you had your eyes checked lately? If you see that in John 20:31, you need to find an optometrist STAT.
BTW, it simply states, "that by believing, you might have life". Nothing needs to be taken from it, and nothing needs to be added to it. It says what it means, and it means what it says.....plainly. -
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ephesians 2:2, 3
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
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Would you say the sheep would be called believers because they are followers of the shepherd?
And what does he do for the followers, that is the believers, that are so being his sheep?
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Is that how we should believers where we find them in the Word of God.
Was Abraham a believer because he believed or did he become a believer because God called him, one man out of all the men living on the earth at that time? One man from among all men, one sheep.
Why did a sheep, Paul, go from unbelief to belief in a moment in time. Because Jesus knew him, him who had been abusing other sheep, Jesus called him and he began following him as his Lord.
Paul was not going down the road to Damascus seeking God. He in ignorant disbelief thought he knew God yet he did not for he was blind. Spiritually and then physically so he would understand and then both his eyes were opened. -
problem here is that BOTH are true, in that Biblically the spiritual dead cannot come to Christ by their own efforts, so God grants them what is needed to hear and place faith in christ!
God regernates, person places faith in christ, BOTH happen and are true! -
You cannot show even one verse that says regeneration precedes faith, while there are at least a dozen verses that all say a person believes to have life. John 20:31 is a perfect example.
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Calvinists say the exact opposite of what God says in his word. Who does that remind you of? -
problem is that the sinner does not have means to respond in a positive fashion to Christ, as he MUST have grace applied from God before even able to place faith in christ!
Not JUST cals affirm this, as Arminians affirm prevenient Grace also! -
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What did Adam and Eve do after they sinned against God? They hid. God was actively seeking them and they hid. Did these who had communed with God at one time go to meet God after He had taken the initiative and was actively seeking them? By no means, not at all. They HID! That is the nature of mankind.
So Skandelon, nice try!!!!:wavey::tonofbricks::sleeping_2: -
Therefore all must be born again.
But it is not simple- as is the case with most marvelous truths.
There must be life in order to receive the things of the Spirit of God, in order to seek God and in order to repent and believe.
The sinner dead in sin has NO DESIRE to know God in any wholesome way. He has no desire to burn in hell either. And he might have a carnal curiosity about God. But all desires toward God are thoroughly and sinfully selfish. He worships self and all he is concerned about is pleasing his self.
Jesus said men in this condition "...WILL NOT come to the light because they love darkness"
But the life which enables a man to seek after God and to receive the things of the Spirit of God, etc... is not eternal life in the salvific sense. It is embryonic. When it matures into full birth THEN it is eternal life.
Salvation occurs after repentance and faith. But there must be some spiritual life to ENABLE repentance and faith.
Many Arminians call this prevenient grace as you know. They do this because they recognize the merit to the biblical doctrine of total depravity. -
Life is life, is life, is life.....
No one is saved outside of Christ, yet you state that one has life in an "embryonic stage", and in Christ? You are saying that one is in Christ and not saved, but still under condemnation?
BTW, support your "embryonic stage" with scripture.....you might need a microscope to find it in the really fine print. -
Your statement above is bogus- thoroughly bogus. The Bible contradicts this thoroughly. But you cling to it because it is extraordinarily simple.
Some people's Bible is not THE Bible- it is the Bumper Sticker Theology Bible.
If it is short and cute and could be placed on a car bumper- THEN BY GOLLY IT MUST BE TRUE!!
But the Word of God is far more glorious than that.
Jude says of these people that they are "twice dead".
These are people who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and who have tasted the good word of God and the power of the world to come- but the spirtual life that was planted in their hearts by the Spirit of God withered and died before it came to fruition.
Paul said that the process of salvation works like this- one plants, another waters and God gives the increase. That's an embryonic phase.
Jesus said of one man- "Thou art not FAR from the Kingdom of God" He was not completely in the world, yet he was not yet in the Kingdom. Truth and life was spawning in him.
Like Calvin, I believe there are people who receive a measure of life but come short of the new birth and eternal life. They are twice dead. Born dead and then still born in the spiritual process.
Salvation is instantaneous but there is a beautiful and complex process that brings about that instantaneous moment.
You don't have to agree with that. But what you do have to agree with if you are to be at all intellectually honest about scripture is that NO ONE seeks after God in their spiritually dead state. -
Plus, that is not even an example of God's effort to make reconciliation with man as we see through the gospel. -
I guess this is also just too plain simple minded. -
I believe you underestimate the power of Christ's words. With them he spoke the world into existence, yet you don't believe they have the power to bring the dead to life?
The Gospel, the WORDS of the Spirit, are the powerful means God has chosen to make the appeal for reconciliation and new life. To suggest one must be alive to accept the message of life confounds the clear meaning of the text, "How will they believe unless they hear?"
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the Gospel has power WITH the union of the Holy Spirit at work to bring sinners to be able to hear/understand/receive jesus...
IF just the nessage, still preaching to deaf and dead ears! -
God did not just make clothes for Adam and Eve, Skandelon. Scripture tells us:
Genesis 3:7. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
In their state of innocence their nakedness was innocent. After they sinned their nakedness for some reason became symbolic of their guilt. Notice also that the cover they provided themselves was insufficient. Man’s effort to atone [or cover] their sin will always be insufficient so they tried to hide from God!
Genesis 3:8. And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
It was Holy God who took the initiative in restoring the relationship that Adam had broken through sin; He sought out Adam and Eve.
Genesis 3:9. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
God provided a cover for their nakedness, an atonement for their sin.
Genesis 3:21. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God made them coats of skin as a covering for their sin, skin that required the shedding of innocent blood, the blood of animals. Why is the shedding of blood required for the remission of sin? The penalty for sin is death. The life is in the blood.
Leviticus 17:11. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
However, this atonement or covering, this sacrifice, was only provisional, foreshadowing the perfect sacrifice that was to come.
Now you can worry about their regeneration!:thumbsup: -
You have yet to quote a verse that supports the idea that men are unable to willingly respond to God's appeal for reconciliation. -
Proverbs 1:22-24
22. How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23. Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. -
And yet Heb. 11 has a list of people who were willing, so what's your point? Some are willing and some aren't.
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